SPEAKER_00 0:00

The whole Linda Blair thing, but it's like, wow, this is really an inefficient plan. And you've had centuries, so why don't you just jump in there? Are you is there a demon shortage? Is it like a COVID thing where you can't find good demons anymore? They're sparse. Demons, you know, they're not paying them a living wage, and they're like, you know, I'm not jumping in any more preteen bodies right now.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

You know, Uber drivers, you just can't get one.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today's guest is that delightful, daring, and always dynamic Jamie. Hello, Jamie.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Hello, Ross.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

And welcome to the show. We're here at Portland Underground Studio. Good place to record yourself, do a podcast, record some music. Also, welcome to all of you and thank you so much for listening. Please share the show. I just found out recently there's a space on TikTok where you can talk about podcasts and share your favorites. And man, if some of you out there who are TikTokers could share your experience with our show, we're trying to grow our community. It's really important to us, and any help you can give us is greatly appreciated. Let's dig into this week's episode. Can't wait. Okay, so we know that for a long time people have been fascinated, horrified, andor petrified by the thought of the devil, otherwise known as Satan, and his evil motives and deeds and all his corrupting power and influence. People have been talking about the devil for a long time in some form or another. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Um well, I guess, you know, Mormon. I was raised Mormon.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

The devil is a Mormon.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

No. And that's our episode, folks. Yeah, so I guess I don't know, Mormon Devil. Um like a guilt tool? I think of the devil as like a guilt tool.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Was it like how when you thought of the devil as a kid when you were a Mormon, how did you picture him? Did you picture it as a him? Did you picture it as a herd? Did you picture it as a blob?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Like a big old buff guy with horns?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

A big old buff guy with horns. Like a like a human man but with horns. Like a wrestler with horns. Right. Okay. Because for a long time he wasn't thought of as human, he was thought of as more beast-like. Yeah. Like maybe he was a goat-like thing or had hoofs, like you know, like half man, half goat or something. There are few details from the Bible about how the devil looks. Right. If you go to the Bible, it's vague. Okay. They're not committing to a particular description.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

It's too long, I'm not gonna read it.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

So I have read the Bible. Yes, I have read the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's fascinating reading, especially the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Oh, I bet.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

That's some wacky stuff in there. You got some gory, grimy action in there. So, to visualize the ruler of hell, uh, a lot of what we think about the devil has evolved over time. By the 15th and 16th century, these images sort of kind of solidified as a beast-like, furry, evil creature. And it wasn't until later that he became more human-looking. That's pretty recent invention. Gotcha. So when I was a kid, I was raised Catholic. I never questioned the devil story.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

It all tracks. It makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

They just said there was God, there was a devil, get with it. You know, and I was like, yeah, okay. Like I never asked any question. Like, what does he look like? What's why is he here? Yeah. What does he like to eat? Does he like pudding? Babies. There was a God, there was a devil, heaven and hell. The devil, as a kid, I knew the devil wanted you to do bad things. Right. That was his goal. He wanted you to do bad things. And that God wanted you to do good things. Because that made him happy. If you want to make the devil happy, you do bad things. Right. If you want to make God happy.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Guys sitting on your shoulder, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Good versus bad. So the devil would set traps for you, we were told. Yep. Temptations. And God would judge you based on whether you went for the cheese in the traps.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

It's like, did you go for the cheese? Well, I love cheese. Yes. It's delicious. There's so many things in the traps that are delightful. Delightful. Corporeal delights that can't even be mentioned are in these traps that are just delightful. But that is all I thought of. I mean, I just accepted that. And the goal in life as a good Catholic kid was to avoid stuff that would get you to hell. Yes. Because they were always telling us we were going to hell. Right. And that's the same. Hell would not be a good place to be. So I think it's kind of interesting to think back on it and realize that I just totally accepted it. I did not think critically at all about it. And I didn't ask any questions. Now, of course, questioning has always been discouraged in a lot of religions, especially when I was a kid, a Catholic kid, they didn't want you asking questions. Right. Questions were for losers. People who ask questions are in the fast lane to hell. To hell, yep. So, you know, we know that people have written books about the devil, painted the devil, made movies about the devil. But the more I read about the actual devil story, and by the way, it's fascinating reading, it's pretty complicated, convoluted, and just kind of mysterious. It's it's definitely something that's evolved over time. There was never like, okay, here's the devil.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

You know, here we go. We know who the devil is. It was always something like, we don't really know. It maybe it's this, maybe it's that, maybe it means this. And uh the more I think about like the actual origin story of the devil, it sounds really, I mean, I don't mean to trivialize this for believers, but it sounds to me like a bad breakup story, I gotta tell you. Yeah. Between God and the devil. Right. You know, where the friends pick sides. Totally. And and uh they both talk shit about each other all the time. It really, I'm telling you, so I was like, okay, so what went wrong between these two? Because I mean, Lucifer, he was God, he God liked him, like he made him, and it's like, you're my bud, you're my my main man, you're my my wingman. Literally. Yeah. You think I planned that, but I didn't. So the story goes, the story has actually several there, there are several hypotheses, depending on what you read, that will tell you what Lucifer did wrong. Sure. The main one you hear, and what I heard as a kid, is that Lucifer became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he just became very prideful. I'm thinking like uh Instagram, anyone? I mean, it's like I mean, come on, really? That's the bad thing, and we all do that, right? With the selfies and the posting. Anyway, so his sin was pride, and that got him 86 from heaven. Some say he was actually trying to dethrone God, like take over. Like, hey God, I can do this better than you, you know. And you know, we've all been that employee, you know. Right. We question our boss.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Like, do you really know what you're doing? Don't I know better than you?

SPEAKER_02 8:17

I feel like I might.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

And then I don't know how that would have worked in his mind. Like, if he's thinking I can do a better job than God, what's God gonna do? Be a minion? God's gonna be the second, second, he's gonna sit in the backseat. Is that how I don't know if he had thought that through. Like, what's God gonna do if he lets the devil take it?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

It was a half-assed plan.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Well, and also God is a backseat driver, what a nuisance that would be. It's like, oh, you should have turned right back there. Why didn't you say anything? Free will, bitch. Some even say that Satan started thinking that he created himself, like he was the creator. Some say he just wanted to like do his own thing, he wanted to govern himself. He thought God was a tyrant.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Yeah, let him live.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

And and you know, he just didn't didn't want to be subservient. He just thought, why do I have to subordinate myself to you? Um, so maybe he was the first one to fight the patriarchy, you know. There you go. Come on, like right. I mean, it's kind of makes sense to me in a way. I kind of feel like I could relate to the devil in that regard.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

He sounds pretty cool. He was the first feminist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

He's sticking it to the man.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

So um, some say that he actually these are all different stories about what he did wrong.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

And you know, there are scholars who spend their life doing this, but the just a cursory reading of the different theories um creates all these different ideas about what he did wrong. And one of the things that they say did wrong uh that got him out of got him in trouble with God was he started being very jealous when God created man. He says, like, hey man, these you made these cool people, and maybe you like them more than me. Are you saying you like it? Like, do you like her more than me now? You know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

I'm your only friend. Yeah, yeah. You only have me. Yes, I'm your only friend. Like, you can't have a friend. You don't need other friends.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

I got I knew a guy like that.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

We all know a guy like that.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

And he said, You don't need those other guys. Yeah, these other friends of mine. Like, we could just be me and you. He literally said those words to me. Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

So, um head is a f in a freezer later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Look into it if that happens. Yeah, that guy.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

All right, slip me a note with his name. We'll keep it.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Look into it. That's all I'm saying. Especially if it's a head in a freezer, and it's a home freezer. I'm not talking about a cryo, a cryo lab. If it's a cryo lab, maybe I'm just hanging with Disney or something. But anyway, so he became jealous of man, or he became jealous of Christ. So Jesus, he's like, oh, so oh, you have to make you have to make a kid.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

He was like, Oh, Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, oh Jesus was the first one to say that. By the way, I would love there's always I always like to imagine that there's a meeting, like like a marketing meeting or a planning meeting, and I just you know, with a bunch of suits at a table, and God's there running the meeting. And everybody's kind of trying to be nice to God, but he has a lot a lot of bad ideas. And um, and so God is like, okay, I'm really unhappy that people, what people are they're like, no one's worshiping me, nobody's getting the message. I've been trying all the stuff, burning bushes, whatever, floods, plagues, locusts, you know, ad infinitum. People still suck. I'm really disappointed with them. So here's my plan. Here's my plan. I'm gonna make a kid. His name's gonna be Jesus. He's gonna be born by a human person, but she's not gonna have to have sex to do. It's gonna be a virgin birth, it's gonna be a miraculous birth. Kid's gonna live for 30 years, and then he's gonna get crucified. But get this, it gets better. Yeah, he's gonna be resurrected. Not everyone's gonna see it, few people will know. And then that'll make it clear to people that they need to like get with this program and start worshiping me and start loving one another and following the Ten Commandments. So he lays this out, right? And he's got like storyboard, he's storyboard of this whole thing, and he sits down, like like I just drop the mic, like, hello, this is awesome. And people are sitting around and are like trying to be nice to him because they know he's the supreme being. But they're like, um, yeah, that's good. Just put a pin in that. Yeah. What about you just show up in the sky where everyone can see you all at once and say, Hey, everybody, I'm God, I'm the supreme being. I need you to do this stuff, or I'm gonna totally blast you from existence. Yeah. Like, wouldn't that be pretty effective? Kind of direct. So you could just imagine somebody is meeting going, Well, yeah, but what if you just kind of told everybody what you wanted?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

He's like, No, no, that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Yeah, it's like, I can't even believe you right now. This is why you are never gonna go anywhere in this organization because you have no vision. So some people say no matter how he got kicked out, then his motivation became since he got kicked out, he got thrown out of the club. Yeah, uh, he wanted revenge.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Revenge.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

I need revenge. And the way to do that is to create trouble for mankind. But why does God put up with all this noise from the devil?

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Yeah, it seems like he could he could put a stop to that. Put the kibosh on the devil.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Like say get hey, sorry, devil, out of the pool. Yeah, time's up.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

You know, yeah. I said you were fired, and I mean it. Right. Because it's kind of like he's letting them hang around.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

When he's a supreme being.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Yeah. Oh, it seems like they need each other a little bit, right? Like it's a love-hate relationship, but they like kind of need each other to balance the scales.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

It's like two exes who still have this connection and they can't let go of it.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

They can't say goodbye, goodbye.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

They still want to argue. They still like are mad at each other, but they also still love each other.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

It's like God's like, well, you please do the right thing, but also like you should, you should ask them to do this bad thing and see if they what they do.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah, you know, and there are some Bible stories like where they it does seem like they're kind of in cahoots where God's like, I'm gonna give you some space to do a little tempting and I'll show you my my people are gonna my people will hang tough.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

They've got a bet, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Yeah, it's almost like a bet.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

They're like rivals. So one thing I was reading said, well, if God had destroyed Satan immediately, the angels would have begun to serve him out of fear rather than love. And I'm like, no, God is all about fear. He just loves it.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Old Testament. Oh, yeah. I mean, Noah's Ark, hello.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Right. The plagues, the plagues, locusts, have you ever seen a locust? They're disgusting. Disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

They're prehistoric gross things that fly and land on you, and it's it's bad. They're tiny dinosaurs. Tiny dinosaurs. Uh so anyway, this idea that the planet had become a testing ground for one system versus another system, and this is like you can read this stuff. Yeah, so this idea that well, God could destroy Satan, but that that that would send the wrong message. Bad branding. What message is being sent by allowing him to hang around? Yeah. What message is that? He did not respect God the way God wanted to be respected. He wanted to do his own thing, and he's like, I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

He's like that kid. Like, hey, you know, when God says, you know, my house, my rules, he says, screw it. I'm doing what I want, and God's okay, then you can't stay here anymore. I mean, it's so basic, right? Right. Classic family squabble. There's a lot of devil movies out there.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

A lot.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

A lot.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Most of them stink.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

I've got some favors. Do you have one that you like?

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Any religious, scary movies. Yes. Always the creepiest, I feel.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

I agree. Right. As a former religious person who was indoctrinated, to me, that has always been the scariest kind of scary movie, is when the devil is doing stuff. I think my all-time favorite devil movie is Rosemary's Baby.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

That is a great one.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Did you watch that one? I love Rosemary's Baby. That's my favorite because what is there's nothing scarier to me than my friend, partner, uh, neighbors, people I know and trust all are secretly conspiring against me because of the devil. And that to me was a great scary movie. And if you've never watched Rosemary's Baby, I won't spoil it for you, but the devil does make an appearance.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

He sure do.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Sort of. It's there's a lot of trick camera work, but the devil makes an appearance, and Rosemary has a baby. That's all I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yeah, and I feel like it holds up still. It was made in like the 60s, I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah, it was a 60s movie. It holds up in every aspect. The characters are great. Um, you know, Mia Farrow, I think, is really good in it, playing sort of a naive young person who suspects something's wrong. Her husband, I can't remember his name. But he does a really good job of, you know, he's obviously in on it, but oh, it's it's really well done. It's it holds up all the way through and it's still scary. Uh in its time, the first movie, The Omen, I found scary.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

I love the omen.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Now I know they've made it, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

And Mia Farrow is actually in the new omen.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Oh, I didn't, I haven't seen the new one. I I'm talking about the old one, but I I'm sure they're both equally scary because kids kids are creepy. Kids are creepy. Yes, you think a doll is creepy? Like in the original omen, it was this creepy little boy.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

There was a movie, it wasn't a devil movie, but it was called The Bad Seed back in the day, and it was about a girl who was evil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

I was thinking children of the corn, too. Yeah, kids are scary.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Little things are scary. Yeah. Little things that are evil are scary. Puppets.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

They're small and they're fast.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Puppets. Yeah. Annabelle Annabelle. Urban squirrels.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Um Twilight Zone, they did things with kids, scary kids, and dolls and puppets. They did all they did everything they could do. Yes. Like at least a dozen times. So, but the omen, and then the other one that you mentioned was the Exorcist, the original Exorcist with uh Linda Blair. And uh, because again, preteen girls, scary. Scary, scary, especially when they puke and their head turns around and they talk like this.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

I remember those days.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Um, yeah, yeah, it's called puberty. Puberty. Scary, scary stuff. Scary. So here's the big question I have. Yes. Those are great movies. Great. And they scared me and my time. I actually read the book, The Exorcist, and that's even scarier. It's just scary. But here's my question.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Oh, let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

So, why does the devil suck so hard at his job? If his job is to mess with us and to take us over and to show God, see, look, I took all your favorite things that you made and I corrupted all of them. What's taking him so long?

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Okay. Well, I think he's doing a great job.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Personally. Come on now. Go go to a shopping mall.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Right. Have you turned on the news right now? Yeah, right. Yeah, he's crushing it. He should get a promotion.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

But the way I look at it is, yes, there are certainly a large share of problems in the world, and there always has been, but he's had centuries to work on this.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Yes, but also I feel like a lot of the things that like we grew up with where we were like, you absolutely should not do that because it's bad and you will go to hell for doing that, were like pretty minor things.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

They were very minor things.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

That most people do. Because I feel like even if you do believe in the devil, you're like, well, this is I'm not supposed to do this, but it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah, it's just a little just I'm just a little backsliding. Just a little a wee little sin. I don't know what the Mormons did, but the Catholics had confession, so you could always wipe the slate clean. Yeah. So you could pretty much do anything, including choking somebody out.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

And you all you had to come back and say is, you know what, that thing I did.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

You know what that 7-Eleven in the little restroom there? Right. Hey, you uh you know, I'm just gonna say uh uh or say it out loud. I'm sorry. My bad. Uh give me a couple of our fathers and let's let's start over. Can we just start over? Can we just start fresh? And you the and Catholic faith says, Yeah, you can start fresh. Yeah, I mean you gotta mean it. Right. And of course you always do. I mean it. I mean it.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah, we had to repent. I'm sorry. Repentance. Yeah, repent.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

And talk to your bishop and then because yeah, you're right. Everybody's doing all the things.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Everyone's doing all of the things.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Especially the people who claim they're not doing the things. They're the ones that are doing the most things.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Right. And it's like you could do one really big bad thing that the devil would love, right? But everyone does. About a billion small bad things. So does that like add up to one big thing? It ought to add up. Right. You get your tally marks.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

So you're you look at the world and you see, um, and you were telling me one time that the Mormons were would um I don't know what the word you use, but they would claim like horrible figures from the past, like they'd say, you know, Charles Manson, we'll take him.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah. We'll take Hitler, right? Yeah, do baptisms for the dead.

unknown 22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Yeah, like we're we'll give them one more try after, you know, because like you know, and I thought that was a very generous program.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Quite generous, yes. Where you could be a horrifying person in history and some me some 13-year-old child will get baptized for you after you're dead.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

That's pretty that's a great stand-up thing. Good move. That's awesome. So um, but I but I I I hear your point where you're saying, no, he's doing a pretty good job. Just look around. Yeah. People are doing all these things. But my feeling is he has centuries and centuries. He should have like locked it up by now. There shouldn't even be any more contest. The game is over. The game's over. Either he's lost or he's won, depending on how you want to look at it. I say he's lost, he's doing a crappy job. The both, the best he can do is get some senators like doing a porn site or whatever they do, making out with their pages or whatever they're you know, stealing. You know, it's like, okay, so is that is that all you got? Like, why aren't we all wearing horns right now and like stabbing people with pitchforks? Like, come on.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

You want this to be like a Mad Max situation where we're like, Yeah, it's gotta we gotta have a winner here.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah, and I feel like he hasn't won. I it's still struggling, and it's like, who would watch this show anymore?

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Right. It's like it's like a soap opera, it's been on for so many seasons, it's so slow moving.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

God oh my god, that's just perfect. The God devil thing is a soap opera, and it's just like all my children and Susan Lucci is in it somehow, and it's just she's 700 years old and she's still in it, and it's like, um, yeah, you can predict everything that's gonna happen, right? And they keep trying to surprise us with, well, how about this? This is pretty horrible. It's like, yeah, it's horrible. This is a horrible thing, but yesterday was horrible too, and tomorrow's gonna be horrible. And it's like we're still here, and can we just declare a winner?

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Let's get to the fire and brimstone. Let's get it over with.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

If there's a final judgment, whatever. Yeah. Again, another I imagine these people at a marketing meeting is like, okay, well, we'll let this go for a few thousand years, and then we'll have a final judgment. We'll have like, you know, it'll be like uh American Idol final finale kind of situation. And it's like, really? Do we do you need to have a judging at this point? Yeah. Obviously, we're no good at being the people you want us to be. Right. There's been like four people that have done well under this contest. Most of us have not done well.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yeah. You gotta commit to either 100% good or a hundred percent bad all of us are in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

We can't do it. No, I can't do it. Um but I, you know, he's I feel like if God didn't like him before and threw him out, like he should be fired now. Like if he was an employee, the devil was an employee, he'd be like, dude, you can't I've given you so many chances and you still can't get it done. It's like, what do you want? I mean, uh if evil is gonna triumph, like let's see a triumph. If it's not trying, and if it has triumphed, in your view, like, okay, yeah, evil won. So look, can we stop the contest then and just forget about all the noise?

SPEAKER_02 25:54

I kind of feel like it both ways, they're they're both of them are not doing a great job.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

They're both sucking at it pretty hard. Well, that brings me back to the exes fighting, and it's like the kids are the ones that are suffering. It's like I just want mommy and daddy to get along.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Please just get a divorce.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Can you just yeah, can you just call it?

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Just call it like you guys none of us are having a good time.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

We're all miserable. Yeah, you know, we're in the backseat of the car, dad's drunk, mom is like holding a gun on him, and it's like this this is horrifying. It's totally traumatizing. We're traumatized enough. Yeah, the devil has all these demons too, like jumping into people's bodies, and it's like that's the most inefficient thing I've ever seen. Right. The whole possession thing. It's like people that's really scary, right? And that makes great movies, the whole Linda Blair thing, but it's like, wow, this is really an inefficient plan. And you've had centuries, so why don't you just jump in there? Are you is there a demon shortage? Is it like a COVID thing where you can't find good demons anymore? They're sparse. Demons, you know, they're not paying them a living wage, and they're like, you know, I'm not jumping in any more preteen bodies right now.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

You know, Uber drivers, you just can't get one.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

I'm just thinking, like, if there's all this army of demons, like get on with it. Like jump into everybody's body, we'll all have our heads spin around, we'll throw up on a priest and we'll call it a night. Yeah. Let's get it over with. It's a hold up on these demons. By the way, this whole going-to-hell thing. Uh-huh. This whole going-to-hell thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Sounds nice. It's warm.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

I think if you uh like these days with modern people, like if I went to hell right now, I would sue God.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Okay. Inadequate warnings.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Yeah. Well, and I just feel like uh all my friends will be there. So I would rather go there.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Sounds more fun. So you're like, you're at uh you're talking to St. Peter and you're like, can I see your list on which I'm I know I got into these pearly gates, but I'm trying to like decide between these two parties. And God also, I just gotta throw this in. I think he is like a horrible negotiator.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Okay, so what what happens whenever something bad happens to somebody? They're in a tough situation. They pray and they say to God, look, if you just get me out of this thing, if you just make this go right, if you make this surgery go right, or if you make this happen for somebody I love, I promise I'll start going to church, I'll become faithful, I'll do all the things, right? And God, He almost always falls for it. And then what happens? What happens?

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

All right.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

It's a beautiful day outside. I'm not going to church on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

It's like, but it's Pornhub, God.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

They've got everything I like. It's free.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

It's free, and they have all the categories that I'm interested in. And so then people renege, right? They renege on the promise. Right. And then what does God do? He just like kicks the dirt. Oh jeez. You said you would do it.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

You promised.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

You promised me. Well, I'm not going to make that mistake again, but then again, there he goes again. Yeah. So it's like, uh, yeah, I don't know. He's horrible. He's horrible at creating these scenarios. He hasn't dealt with the devil correctly.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

No. And I feel like if you make a deal with the devil, the devil follows through.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

The devil's on it.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

He's on it.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

He's collecting souls. And again, I don't see why that's even fun for him. Because yes, initially, yeah, I'm going to prove to God that he made these people and they actually suck, and I'm going to prove it. And I'm going to collect all these souls, and then I'm going to go, nah, nah, nah, nah nah. Look at my sack of souls.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Look, God, I got a billions of souls in a sack.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

And so either God's got to say, okay, I'm changing the rules. Anybody holding a sack of souls gets smoted or smited and zaps them right there. Yeah. Or he's got to say, You're right. I I'm I'm you're you win. Yep. Or something, this just can't keep going on because again, the kids are being traumatized. Like we're dealing with this. If they would just settle their little spa, their sp if they would just settle their spat, we could just go and have a nice life. Right. We could just enjoy smelling the flowers and eating at Taco Bell and petting toothless dogs. We are pawns in this horrible game that's being played. And I think that's what the devil did, by the way. I think he negotiated this whole situation with God. God says, I don't like what you're doing. My house, my rules. You gotta get out. And devil says, Yeah, okay, but what if we make a little competition out of it? What do you say we get a little action in it? Yeah, let's get put a little something on it. Let's let's see. And God's like, okay, yeah, let's use these humans as pawns in our little crazy chess match. Why can't these two buttheads just leave us alone?

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yeah, get out of our business.

unknown 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Beat it, both of you.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Beat it. Like go fight each other somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Like do uh one of those, what do they call them, smackdowns? Is that the wrestling?

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Like a wrestling. Yeah. Is that a smackdown? I think that's the thing. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

They ought to have a smackdown.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

So my conclusion about all of this is when I read all this stuff and I think about my own religious training and where I am now being a non-religious person is this is just a bad breakup story.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Yes. That keeps going.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

It's like the estrange family member story, okay? The the bad egg in the bunch. But it's like enough already with this. Like we've had enough. We've seen it played out. You got nothing new. So either destroy it, start over, destroy each other, do something, but let's not just keep dragging out the misery. There's no reason we should be in a miserable situation right now. People actually, and I actually believe this, are mostly good. And we just want to hang out.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

You know, get a beer after. Yeah. Hang out. Eat some ice cream. Go on pornhop.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Um maybe at the same time. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

So this is my solution, because you know I have one.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Okay, let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

This is what they need. Okay. God and Satan need to go to the couples counseling.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Go on Dr. Phil something. Whatever it is, do something. Work your issues. Not triangulate through us. We are being triangulated to satisfy their disappointments, unmet expectations, frustrations with each other that are taking it out on us. And we are sick of it.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

We're tired of it. Well, just stop messing with us.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

We're tired of being your pawns. And maybe if they go to couples counseling and they have a good counselor, that would be not Dr. Phil. Although I wouldn't mind seeing the devil cracking a chair over God's head at a gonna lie, yeah. I just want to see it. I I don't mean to be blasphemous, but I or maybe I do. So they they they go to counseling, they stop fighting, maybe they reach a compromise.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Maybe they fall in love.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Maybe they fall back in love because they were in love. And maybe the devil gets to come home for a trial like basis. Like maybe should let's try this again. It's been thousands and thousands of years.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

It's not gonna work, but we can try it again. Let's just try it.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

You know how like you you uh what's it that's like you do the backsliding, you do the uh with the breakup, and then you're like, hey, maybe this will yeah, maybe this will work, plus I got nothing to do on Friday night. Or if you don't like to think of it as exes, think of it like a prodigal son story. The Bible loves the prodigal son story, loves it. So that's the ultimate prodigal son. Let him come home. Yeah, the Bible says that's cool. Yeah, and you know the prodigal son got the fatted calf, and uh the good son was like, What's up with that, God? And God's like, Well, it wasn't God but the father, but anyway, it's all uh it's all a metaphor, it's a metaphor, but anyway, so the father's like, yeah, but he he was gone and totally rejected our way of life and rejected me and disrespected me. So he's a cow. Yeah, he's getting the fat, he's getting the fat calf. Yeah, and you can suck on the bones, your little goody two shoes. So it's the ultimate comeback story. Don't call it a comeback. Yeah, the devil comes home and is welcome with open arms, and they God gives wraps them a big hug. Now, this would be a message for us humans to see God wrap the devil in one of those really long embraces that starts feeling uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Where it's like, you know, you did a double tap on the guy's back, like, okay, this is enough now.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Too much hugging. It's too close, it's too close. Um touching.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

I think it would be a beautiful comeback story. People would cry and think the world would be good again. Like no one messing with us, no one's testing us, no one's tempting us, no one's testing us, no one's putting cheese in the traps for us.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

But we would take the cheese.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

There's nothing wrong with having these instincts and desires as long as we're not hurting anybody. There's really nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong. Like, if you look at the seven deadly sins, most of them aren't that bad, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Sitting around on your couch, stuffing your face. What's that? It's a it's a victimless crime, right? Yeah. Watching bad television. But that's another idea. Maybe that's part of the compromise. The devil gets a reality show. Yes. The devil gets a reality show, like the Kardashians. It's called something like, oh, hell no. And contestants compete for prizes, you know, for doing things that they really shouldn't. So it becomes a game. It's like, yes, I love it. Human beings, they like to act out. Let's put them in a contest. The devil runs it.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

The devil I feel like the devil would be a hoot.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

The devil would be a hoot. Um, both God and the devil have a lot in common. They've both been around forever. They both like messing with us, they both like collecting souls, and they both have a temper.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

They're they're so similar, and that's why they don't get along. That's right. What if God is a ridiculous tyrant and the devil was the ultimate underdog who said, Yeah, hell no, I'm not doing this. Like, no.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Uh that's pretty much how I picture it.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

But like, what if the I mean, this is would be a game changer for a lot of people. And I'm just saying, what if? Okay. What if the devil is the hero of the story and we just haven't figured it out yet? I'm Team Devil here. I think it's a legit question. I mean, that you know, we think we know everything because we've been told this is how it is. But how many times have we seen a movie where we think the bad guy is a bad guy and they turn out to be actually a good guy? A plot twist. This would be a plot twist of biblical proportions. Wow. Thanks for letting me uh talk to you about this.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah, this is great.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Whenever I have a religious topic, I know I can always come to you because I appreciate your sensibility and the fact being brought up in the Mormon faith, you have looked at this, these issues squarely. Squarely in the face. Yes. So thanks everyone for joining us for this episode. If you like what we're doing and you want to help us, uh, we sure would appreciate it. You can share the show with your friends and family. You can rate the show on apps that allow a rating and give us the highest rating possible. And if you can type out a snappy, cool review, that would help us as well. You can go on TikTok and recommend us or any place and recommend us, you can support us on Patreon. All of those things help. We're totally independent, as you can see. We do not have any advertising, which means we're doing this all on our own. But we do love the fact that you support us and listen every week. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you just found out that you go to the same therapist as God and the Devil, or just a participant in the Devil's Game Show, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.