SPEAKER_00 0:00

I kind of think it's reasonable to say that the serial killers have been put out of business. Why would you say that? Well, they can't get away with it. They might be able to do one or two, but they're gonna get caught right away. There's no way. Not with like the sophisticated forensics. What when's the last time you heard of a decent serial killer? Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why? I'm Ross, your host, and today, my guest is a smart, talented, funny, and altogether wise human star. Hello, Star.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Hi, Ross. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Um, doing great, and it's really great to have you on the show. I've wanted to have you on for a long time. Welcome everyone. Friends, I always ask you to help us grow our community, and it is growing, and we're grateful for your coming and listening to us every week, wherever you are in the world. You are welcome here, and we do appreciate it. But you can help us. We're independent, we have no sponsors, and the best way for us to grow the community is for you to share the show with anyone you can, any way you can. At the end, I'll mention some other ways you can help us, but for now, let's get started. Okay, so star, we know humans have less and less privacy, or at least it seems that way. This is hardly news to anyone. We are watched wherever we go, our accounts are hacked, our keystrokes are recorded, our searches are preserved, our cars watch us, our phones watch us, our smart devices listen to us. Companies know what we buy, what we think about buying, where we shop, where we eat, what we eat, where we go, and so on and so on. And I know there has already been a ton of conversation out there about concerns over people being complacent about their privacy, and we today are not going to be doing that. We're not going to be bashing people for trading privacy for convenience, for example. That's really not what we do. What I'm really interested in talking about today is why do we trade our privacy so quickly? And because uh today's spoiler is we all do it. We all do it. So that's where I want to start. And I want to ask you just to kind of go turn the calendar pages back a few ticks and tell me when you were a kid, did you were you aware or self-conscious about your own privacy? Is that something that mattered to you at all?

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Yes. Short answer, yes. Okay, let's do the longer answer. Um, I I immediately had visions of uh, you know, so we we had four kids, two adults in the household with one bathroom. Okay. Okay. And so um I had many, many moments where I would forget to lock the bathroom door, which was done with one of those hook, you know, hook hook ones. Yeah. I mean, it was real, you know, local hardware store. Um, and uh and you know, one of my siblings or parents would open the door not knowing that I was in there and just screaming at the top of my lungs. We all would do that. Yes, just shriek, gada.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

I'm laughing because this is very familiar.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

And eventually, you know, and sometimes people would think to knock, and it was it was almost an affront to hear a knock, also, you know, where you're like, somebody's in here. No, you know, those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah, there's a reason the hook is you know latched. There's a reason you're, you know, can keep trying the knob, but that's not no, that's not helpful. Right. Just go away.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Exactly. Exactly. You're you're preventing uh the evolution of my process.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yes, the evolution of your process. That is such a great way to describe it. I was in the same boat. We had a larger family, and the main bathroom that we were allowed to use uh had three doors, which is a nightmare for privacy.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

That doesn't even I I'm I'm having a hard time making uh, you know, d like blueprint sense of three doors.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

We need to make blueprint sense, yeah. And one of them was a revolving glass door. No. No, so there were three doors. I guess these are called Jack and Jill bathrooms.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

What a horrible invention.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

So you have a bedroom on one side and a bedroom on the other, and they both have their own way to get in. Right. And then there's a main door into the hall where other people can get in. So you've got to guard three doors. Now, the lock on the main door was okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

But the lock on the two doors to the bedrooms, it was like this little turn thing, and you could easily open it with your fingernail on the other side if it was locked. Oh boy. So you had to stand guard. And the same, just as you, when anyone approached, and because it was a larger family, someone was always approaching and trying to get in. And would, you know, start moving the door, opening it with you'd see the little handle, the little lock turning because they got their fingernail in there. And we would scream, I'm in here, loud enough, really, for the neighborhood to know what we were doing. And so that was the only that the bathroom was the only place, because we had nine people in my family, was the only place where you would not see another person. Because anywhere else you would go in the house, there was always somebody else right there.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Always. You could never have a alone time. You know, you slept in a room with other kid, another kid or kids, and you you so you never so the bathroom was the only place, but you were constantly under threat. Not only that, but for some reason there was a chinchilla in there.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

For some reason? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Well, I've explained explained before in this show that we were not allowed to have what I call real pets, like a dog or a cat.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Oh, you had to have like fur pets.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Almost pets. Pets that could live in a cage that never got out, and my mother didn't have to take care of it. That was her rule. Like, I don't want to take care of it because I know you kids, you're not gonna take care of it. And if it's a dog or a cat, it's gonna be I felt I think she felt that's where her line was in terms of responsibility. A dog or a cat, those things have to be, those things can't be neglected. Those animals can't be neglected. But if it's a parakeet or a fish or a mouse or a chinchilla, I'm okay with those pets dying an untimely death.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Really? A chinchilla, I mean, those are, you know, a furrier would would argue.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yes. No, I never really thought about the fact, but this is the only way it makes sense to me. Is she must have had this this ethical line that she drew for animals? Sure. So, so cat or dog, okay. I will take care of you, even if my kids don't. But anything else, no, right. You're gonna die a horrible death. So uh learned that today. We've learned that today about my mom, and I'm glad I shared it. So we would all have these almost pets like birds and fish, and somehow my little brother wanted a chinchilla. But what I don't understand is why it lived in the bathroom.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah, was it loose?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

He'll be in there smoking, reading the sports page. No, the the chinchilla was in a cage, but more specifically, most of the time, I would say 90% of this chintilla's time was spent in a fish bowl in the cage, and the fish bowl was filled with dust because they like dust.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

They like sitting in dust. So you'd go in there, you'd be watching all the doors, and then this chinchilla would be right in front of you, watching you from a bowl of dust. It was intimidating. Yeah, it was intimidating. So it was so that was but that was privacy in my house. But I will tell you that today, that one of the repercussions of that experience is today, if I'm in a relationship, I have to have my own bathroom.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Yes. Oh, your own bathroom.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

I have to have my own bathroom that no one can go in.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

So ever. That that that that makes me think about earlier you said the bathroom that we were allowed to to use. Yeah. So I assume that parents had their own bathroom. Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

They had their own.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

And it's not that we weren't allowed to go in there, but we were not encouraged to do that.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

That was that was a bold move.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

To go in their bathroom.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

You yeah, you know, and plus, yeah, so we were encouraged to use the there was there was another bathroom at a whole different part of the house, this little tiny bathroom. Bathroom. Uh-huh. Yeah, that was that the oldest kid was sort of designated for them. They had a little um tiny room that they would stay in, and that was their prize for being the oldest kid, is they got to stay in a room by themselves and have an adjacent bathroom that was kind of theirs. And again, in an emergency, because with nine people in a house, sometimes you had a fan out to use to do your thing. So so it's not like you weren't allowed to use it, but it was, you know, again, it was discouraged. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Some prize. That's a that's a serious prize for just the luck of birth order.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yes. So you would always be watching the next kid in line, like the kid that was in that room, because you were waiting and you were either hoping they would get out of high school, because that was a thing. Once you're out of high school, you gotta move out. Sure. Or, you know, something would happen to them, fall down a well, disappear. It doesn't matter. You get the room. I'm not saying you were rooting for it. Well, you weren't rooting for it, but it you know, it would have been one of the consolations.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Sure. Like, well, that's sh a shame about that cement mixer accident. But now I get the room. So my goodness. But anyway, it was a competitive situation. Clearly. Although I will say regrettably, so the last kid in line. The last kid in line had seen this progression everybody got as they got older, and then out of high school they leave, and the next kid immediately moves in the room, because who doesn't want their own little space? So it's finally her turn. And the kid who was supposed to move on didn't. He didn't leave. And my parents at that point, they'd already jumped the shark on parenting, and so they just didn't do anything. They let the the kid who was supposed to leave they let him stay.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

It is funny for you to describe your siblings as the kid.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

How should they be described?

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Like your brother, you know, or like Frank or whatever their name is, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Did I say that chinchilla's name was Ralph? No. The chinchilla's name was Ralph. I never saw him outside of his cage after like the first couple of months. He was always in his cage, always in a bowl of dust, always watching you poop. But yeah, so um, so one kid never left. And my parents at that point, because they'd always been so strict about once you're out of high school, you're out of here. Like you can't, there's no coming back. There's no like you can come back on a holiday, but none of this sticking around and finding yourself. Just beat it. Especially my mother, because she was like just it was like a what is it, uh, like a factory, what's the thing called? Uh uh, an assembly line situation. Yeah, it was like she was like the Henry Ford of kidding, you know, kids. She would make the kids and push them out and then push them out on their life, you know, out of the nest, get out of here. Um, it she sounds like a not a nice person, but she was a lovely human. I don't mean to suggest that she was mean, but she did have rules. But when when the when the the kid was supposed to leave, at he he got to the point where he was supposed to leave, he just decided to stay. So my little sister never got my littlest sister never got the special room.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

That's too bad. She probably carries that.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Oh, she does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

She definitely has her own bathroom too, right? Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

I just think I just I was I had a um a relationship with somebody uh before the pandemic, and they I had to disclose it got to the point the relationship matured to the point where it was time for me to tell her that I this is my bathroom. Now I live in a like an apartment thing, but I have two bathrooms. So I said, this one's mine, this one's for you. You can use this and go to town in there.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

But this one's and she was like, What do you mean I can't use it? And then she was like wanting to, it was really important to her. She felt like that was, you know, a a litmus test for how close we were getting. It's like, come on, but what if I have having an emergency? And I was like, what kind of an emergency? It's like it's like 10 seconds to the other one. Like, what's it?

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah, wouldn't you want to have an emergency in your own bathroom? That's how I feel.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

That's how I and see, I don't even like so I don't want people using my bathroom, uh-huh, even if I'm not in there. I just don't want them in there.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah, sacred space.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

It's sake, I really that's so important to me now. And it's I think it's because of going to the bathroom for years with the chinchilla watching me. So it's just having having that space. And um, but it was really important to her, and at some point to I guess to see if I would um jump out a window or something, she somehow, I can't remember how she pulled it off, but she somehow got in there, snuck in there, and left somehow left things like little surprises for me to let me know that she'd been in there to like I violated your space, look, and but it was supposed to be a joke and everything. Yeah, we broke up. Oh um, not because of that. Anyway, so most people say they care about privacy, right? I mean, I say that, but most people don't act like they do, so they say they do, but they don't act like they do. And I came up with three factors that influence what we actually do about our privacy, and I want to bounce them off you. Simple three factors determines how private we are. First question: Do I want access to whatever this is right now? Do I want it right now? So, whatever it is, if it's online, if something online or some kind of app, do I want access right now? Do I want to do this thing or go to this club or be in this group? Whatever it is that requires me to give them some information about me. So, do I want it? Is everybody I know doing it? So, especially that's true with like these apps that people get excited about. Um, I think there was one where you take a picture of yourself or submit a picture and then they show you how what you look like when you're older. I was already old, so I didn't play that game. But when everybody's doing something, it's like, oh, I want to do it, and everybody else is doing it, so it must be okay. So you end up submitting information. Um because there's this apparent consensual validation. Other people in my life are saying it's okay. And then the final, the third thing is, is the thing cool to do? So those are my three. So, do I want access right now? Is everybody doing it? And is it a cool thing? Like, is it a cool game, a cool app? I can find out some interesting information, or I get some other thing that I'm excited about. And if the answers to all those questions are yes, then we tend to be more willing to trade our privacy for access to the thing. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Yeah, I mean, I think um, you know, you're you're mostly talking about, you know, of course, online access and and uh being able to participate in um, you know, the the the world of the internet and being online and connected in that way. Right. But I'm also just trying to think how that functions outside of that context. And I think there's truth there, especially in the in the first one, um in your in your first criteria, if you want to um remind me again. Do I want to access it?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Do I want to do it right now? Do I want access right now?

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Yeah, exactly. So when you think about things like applying for a job or, you know, um dating, you know, any of those things, like do I want to have that experience in the immediate? Because if so, I'm gonna have to, you know, give something up. Give up my social security number as an example, you know, to to a new employer or um, you know, someone might find out where you live so they can drop you off, you know. Right, right. Those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Um, do I need a ride right now? I mean, yeah, I think there are a lot of um a lot of places where that where that carries over. Um but that social element is really significant. And it's really hard, you know, sure, you know, at the top of the show you said you know, we don't want to shame anybody for giving up their privacy. I think that's true because the stakes are really high. You know, it's like, well, do you want to participate in this thing that everybody's participating in, or do you just want to be unknown and alone? Right. Exactly. You know, it's it's really it's really difficult to find that balance. And boy, you know, but at the end of the day, information is power. And so when we give that up, we are also you know, giving up this element of power that we have. And what do we really have? Like so few of us are uh, you know, billionaires or even like registering on the on the richness um, you know, um meter, the richometer. The richness meter, the richometer. Exactly. But um you know, so so few of us really have much. And and what we have are our ideas, our experiences, and our personal information. And so when that is on the table, and if that's what you're bargaining for, boy, it just leaves you really um vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Yeah, I think so. I agree with that. It does leave you vulnerable. I was thinking about um just taking outside of the internet, which is where a lot of us are trading our privacy for access to things that we want to do or um cool things that we want or gadgets that we want, but just going on an airplane ride. You your privacy is invaded uh literally on your person. You're scanned.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

You know, people can touch you to see if you have whatever it is they think you have.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Go through your belongings, go through all your junk.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Like I mean, the worst I hate it when they open up my bag and go through my stuff. It actually bothers me.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Yeah, because you're like, there's nothing in there. What are you doing? This is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Do you want to try that on? I don't think it's your size, but you know, you might as well now because uh you know I'm gonna have to wash everything anyway.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, I did pre-check, so I was like fingerprinted and you know went through the whole federal example thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

I mean some databases.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

So pre check, yeah, you're done. So pre-check is the thing where if you are willing to submit your fingerprints and other vital information, the US government will allow you to skip one of the security lines. You go to the little faster line and you don't have to take off your shoes.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

And you don't have to be x-rayed. And that was kind of my basic.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Well, you go through the old-fashioned x-ray.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah, so if you have metal, then they'll be able to see that. But you don't get the you don't have to go into that spinning x-ray machine. Right. So, which the one that shows all your parts.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Plus the line's a little shorter, and um I thought pre check was pretty cool until they decided that everyone over 90 years old was gonna get. To do that.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I think it was over 90. The criteria were over 90, never flown before, and had no clue about anything related to travel.

unknown 22:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

So the line, so now you get in the line, and there's somebody who's like got a steamer trunk filled with giant water bottles, and we're like, Can I take these on? We we make these trades, and we uh many of us do it willingly. Sometimes we do it without really knowing, or we don't think about it the same way. So a lot of people, if you said, putting aside the airline thing, a lot of people, if you said, Would you willingly give your fingerprints? They would say, No way, I'm not doing that. You know, you gotta arrest me for a crime or something. I'm not getting fingerprinted. But a lot of people, including this guy, have given my fingerprints to Apple so I can open my iPad.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

The the biometrics. So that's out there. I did that. I didn't even think about it as giving my fingerprint.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 23:07

I didn't even think about it as disclosing something. I thought it was it's just between me and my device.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Oh, that's nice. That's that's what you know, that's the desired, the desired experience. Isn't it cute? Yeah, it's like this is my little pet. This is my chinchilla in the bathroom. Yes, the chinchilla. Yes, it was it's just there all the time in my most private moments, just observing me.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

And if you drop your phone in the water and you put it in chinchilla dust, I bet that will rehabilitate it.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

I I think that might be a stretch, but I like the optimism.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

I was just trying to go with the whole chinchilla metaphor. I want to.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

It's true. I th well, yeah, if he hung out in rice, I think that'd be a better better uh outcome.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

So we don't realize we're making these compromises, but we do. Uh speaking of other compromises we make, I mentioned genealogy databases. So, you know, people will give their DNA and they're just thinking, like, well, this is just between I'm just trying to find out how much Irish I've got in me.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

You know? And uh and that's really is kind of cool. But then we've heard these stories about the police using this information to track down bad people.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Bad people.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Well, it's a you know, depending on the um they they apparently have some sort of criteria in the states where it's legal still. Like it has to be someone, uh murder case, or maybe it's a rape case too, or maybe it's some other kind of very severe case, but I don't know where they draw the line, really.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

You know, I I love the idea of a of a serial rapist who's like, you know what I need to do? 23 in me. Well, I just want to find out. It's just curious. How much Irish?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

I don't know how much Irish is in me. I well, see the what they were doing is they weren't they weren't getting their DNA. They were getting the DNA from relatives and they were able to track them down that way.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

It's a fascinating story. And I'll I'll put a link to an article, a long form article in the show notes so people can read about this whole thing. But it's fascinating. Um, they've caught any number of people this way. And they've solved crimes, horrible crimes 50 years old, that they couldn't solve. Like they tried everything. They brought in dogs and psychics and all the great minds, and they did all the forensics that they had at the time. Never caught these people 50 years go by. Somebody, you know, wants to know how much Irish they got, and it's a distant relative, but using that information, they're able to then track down the killer. And then they've arrested these people to the extent they're still alive.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Oh my goodness. I feel like that is a television show just begging to happen. I bet there maybe genealogy as crime fighting.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

It's not methodology, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

It's really cool, but the actual work is quite laborious. And I don't know if it's must see TV, the actual work. But the the personalities could be interesting. And there could be a love interest.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Well, you know, and I think the key is you always have to go back to like the family home and do some digging that way and find some hair in a book or something.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Hair in a book.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Right?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I mean Yeah, they caught this one guy. Once they figured out they thought it was him, then they all they needed was like a thrown-out coffee cup. So like he got a coffee at a like a truck or something on one of these.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Um, so they were tracking him. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Then once they figured out it's probably this guy, this is probably our guy, because we've got we've been able to using DNA, we were able to kind of track it's probably gonna be him. Uh-huh. Uh, and then they just got his DNA from a discarded coffee cup, like a styrofoam cup, and boom, done. But it's it's fascinating. There's any number, it's not just a few. They've solved many old, old, old cold cases this way. So on the one hand, that's kind of cool. Yeah. But on the other hand, it's like you're trying to find out how much iris you got, and you're unwittingly uh getting Uncle Louie in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

You're getting but on the but then uh should Uncle Louie but Yeah, but if Uncle Louie committed an actual heinous crime, you gotta give him up. It's a toughie.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

It's a tough one though.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Um yeah, it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Here's here's how I think of it. So I've got some hoarders in my family, so I'm real familiar with what are they hoarding? Just stuff from decades and decades. It you know, it it wasn't like a like a hoarders episode with like diabetic needles, but a lot of newspapers, a lot of books, you know, any kind of periodicals, just belong pens, like a really impressive amount of pens, mugs, you know, just kind of general stuff. But here's the other part of it is that you have like generations of people's belongings. So it's you know, it's my parents' belongings and they kept their parents' belongings, and so all of this stuff is like, you know, in the attic and in the basement and everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

And and here's the thing about hoarding, which is what's happening with, you know, Google and these other entities that are that are collecting and selling our data, is that you know, you hold on to it because you're just not sure when you might need it. Like human hoarders, yeah, you know, they these these corporate hoarders don't know when when this stuff might become valuable.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Because similar with uh with human hoarders, you know, if you're a person who gets your hands on this estate, yeah, it's a lot of weird and and non-usable stuff, but then you'll have very valuable antiques.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

And and you can, you know, sell those. Well, similarly, we don't know in the future w how this information could be valuable.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

And it's great, it's just for free. I mean, this is oil, gold rush, oil rush, all you know, it's data rush. Data rush. That's where we are.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

And uh and yeah, we can use it in the short run, but boy, there's gonna be something down the road that we just can't anticipate. There's now and later as far as value is concerned.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

The constant rejoinder when any anyone would talk about privacy is they'd say, I have nothing to hide. The problem with that kind of argument is that it does not anticipate or can't anticipate what people will be finding interesting 10 years from now and what they might find not only interesting, but objectionable. And um, there's plenty of examples throughout history that we could think of where one group in power decided some other group was no longer acceptable. Right. And then having being able to attract those people in a very efficient way would become extremely uh risky. So we just never know. But yes, we know that they're hoarders. I like to think of them as data hoarders. I hadn't thought that's a great concept. So we talk about privacy and we talk about we sometimes will wring our hands and lament about the loss of privacy, but I'm wondering if we ever had it ever in our history, being an organized group of humans. Did we ever really have any privacy?

SPEAKER_02 30:27

I mean, I I keep going back to that power component.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

You know, information is power, and uh when you have people's information, gossip. That's why gossip is so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

You anticipated my very next remark.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

All right.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Perfectly because gossip was used in uh in societies that by a long shot predated our interconnected society that we have today. Gossip was a social control function, it was a way of um learning about other people and also about gossip and rumor was a way to correct behavior to let people know what's good and what's not good. And to have good gossip, you have to be watching your neighbors. And I think we've always been watching each other. But I'm wondering if back then if we were asked to trade information about ourselves to get things we wanted, like employment or access to society or whatever it is we were wanting, if we still did it just as willingly, it was just a different kind of disclosure.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Yeah. I mean, I think about you know, confession uh in a you know, like priest confession. And, you know, what is that? But m making sure your parishioners have have divulged their deepest, darkest to you. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's uh I think a real uh I think that's a really good example of how our ideas about privacy and and letting go of mistakes um has been exploited, you know, and and continues to be exploited because it's effective. It's a really effective method of control, and it's um an effective way to uh participate in capitalism in a really you know explosive way when you when you can anticipate what people are gonna be wanting because you're just watching them all the time. It's amazing. I I do just keep going back to that that power component, you know, that that when you think about who who has privacy, it is the people who have the most money and resources. You know?

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Right. And that is that is an argument that has been made about privacy. It's usually to serve people in power some way.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Right. And when you think about that, even it within a family system, I mean, I don't know about you, but I I knew of teenagers whose parents threatened to take the door off their off the hinges of their bedrooms, you know, as a as a punishment for, you know, whatever, doing something they didn't like. But but that kind of control of people is really significant. And I think about it in the workplace as well, you know, with teleworking, for example, um, gosh, there are some really impressive and almost like acrobatic ways that employers will will try and control the behavior of their employees. Yeah. You know, where you know, you where they're like, you you are expected to have child care if you're gonna telework from home, which is such a burden. Um, you know, or you are expected or or the camera's always on, you know, those kinds of scenarios where the employer is just like filming you constantly to make sure you're in front of your computer. I mean, I mean, this is I'm you know, the fact is this is like America is a slave nation, you know, it's just those traditions stick, this idea of like I own you when you're on the clock.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

There I remember when the pandemic started and people working home, the major concern that I kept hearing was well, how do we know what people are doing with their time? Right. I mean, I don't know. Uh, do you get the work back? Exactly. So if you get the work back, who cares how they're doing it?

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

I never thought of this before, but I guess I should think about the chinchillas point of view.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Being in a cage.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Well, being in a cage and watch kids go to the bathroom. Yeah, it's sort of like maybe Ralph felt like he was being watched.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Well, he certainly was. I mean Yeah. I mean, I think well, when you think about like hamsters and stuff, they're always going into their little uh you know, toilet paper rolls or something. I don't like to think about hamsters.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

I don't like to think about them.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Really? Do you have some bad hamster experience?

SPEAKER_00 35:13

I do think I have to draw the line at some with something, and just I'm not gonna think about those things.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

So did you ever see the movie Rear Window, Alfred Hitchcock movie, Grace Kelly, Jimmy Stewart?

SPEAKER_02 35:27

I mean, I I've never seen it in its entirety, but I I'm familiar with it.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Well, the guy's in a wheelchair because he broke his leg, and so he just stares out his window and watches his neighbors all day and eventually solves a murder crime, murder mystery. That's what it what happens. And he gets Grace Kelly somehow.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Isn't she a princess?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

She did become uh the a princess of uh uh Monaco, I think. Yeah, and then she later drove off a cliff with her daughter, unfortunately. They think she maybe had a heart attack or a seizure of some kind.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Off a cliff, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

She drove off a cliff in Monaco and her daughter survived, but she did not.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

That's amazing. The daughter survived.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

She lived to tell about it, as they say. So uh we talked about gossip. There's always been a social control function associated with watching and gossiping about our neighbors. Um, we've been told, well, because I was raised Catholic and we were told that God was always watching.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

So you never really felt when it when you were a kid, you believed that stuff, or I did anyway. So you're like, I'm nothing I'm thinking or doing is being unobserved. Like God knows everything. We were also told that a crack, the nuns told us that a crack would open up and we would fall into it and be sucked into hell or something. There was something about a crack opening.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Wow, that is fascinating. Yeah. I knew this one guy who was raised Catholic and he had this uh phobia for sinkholes. And I feel like I'm starting to understand where that might have come from.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah. Well, they they were they were always saying things bad were gonna happen. There's bad things are gonna happen to you.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Um, they also told me I would not amount to anything, and let's look where I am now doing this podcast with you. So suck it, nuns.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

God, I I just I mean, of course, yeah, suck it. But also, geez, that's just so depressing.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

I was also thrown out of a confessional. And how do you get thrown out of a confessional? That's my question. So right now in Chicago, if you walk down the street, there are estimated to be at least 30,000 cameras watching you.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Oh, for good.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Okay. So we're being watched everywhere. Uh the police or even a citizen using a pretty easy-to-get software, you can um use uh you can identify someone, you can do facial recognition, someone walking through a park, and you can find out who they are and where they live. That's not only can that be done, it is done. So that can happen. And then anyone can do that. Okay, so that exists. Um we know that we anyone sort of alive today is it's we talked about a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know now that you're being observed almost everywhere somehow. There's a camera everywhere, it seems. And so one could argue that you d no longer have a reasonable expectation of privacy when you're out in public just walking down the street. Right. Because there's probably a camera somewhere, and if it's not a government-owned camera, then it might be somebody's camera on their house, like the little ring cameras that everybody has on their houses to see what the FedEx guy is doing.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Yeah, who's stealing packages, you know, or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

So, like if there's a drone flying over your house and you're sunbathing in the backyard, you do not have an expectation of privacy, a reasonable expectation of privacy according to the law. Is that so?

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Is that the law protects the uh drone spy?

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Right. The law protects the drone spy if you are outside, even if you're have a fence around your yard.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Oh, if you're outside.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

If you're outside. Now, if you're lying in your house under a sunlamp, no, the drone can't like peek in your window. That's violating your you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your own home. But a lot of people think, well, I'm in my own yard and it's fenced in, so no one should be able to film me out here doing whatever I'm doing. And the answer to that is no, they can.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Yeah, that's really interesting for people who sleep rough as well. Exactly. Do they have any privacy? Why? And if not, why?

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Uh I mean That's a really good, really great question. Um, just as a side note about this whole surveillance thing, people uh became uncomfortable when postcards first became a thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Because they thought that that was an invasion of privacy.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

I mean, it is because people can read them.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Yeah. So uh we're always on under view. Some people say they feel safer that way. How about you? Do you feel safer knowing you're being watched?

SPEAKER_02 40:31

That's a really interesting question. You know, I I'm I was socialized female, so I certainly walk around with an incredible amount of fear.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

So having a camera, I don't know. I mean, another factor is I'm I I'm a performer. And the whole premise of performance, I think, has to do with controlling the attention that you get. Right. And and when you get that attention. Exactly. So I think that there's also something that I kind of enjoy about cameras where I don't know, uh like in working for a government entity where technically anything that you write, like in an email or whatever from your work email can be um subpoenaed and and take taken a look at. And so I always like to say that I like to keep my my emails as as entertaining as possible so that when the government is looking at them, they can get a couple of chuckles.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

So they get something out of it. Exactly. I have always felt that people deserve to be entertained. And I've been entertaining people my entire life, uh, one way or another, formally and informally. And I um I just do different things because I just feel people just need our day like improved. So I live in a building and I will um there's no camera in the elevator, but they do have notices, you know, like little placards that have like today's thing to think about is this, you know, or this meeting is happening, whatever, building information. So I will put in my own announcements in there. I will uh make up an apartment number and then say, like the bab, you know, John and Peggy Babcock are celebrating the birth of their grandchild by having an all-you-can-eat clam feed at their place, and then I'll list the times and you know, please come casually, drop in anytime. And it's not a real number, so it's not like I'm pranking someone, it's just and I don't know. Um I've put in like I've had a little bottle and it says drink me on it. I'll put that in this little bottle in the corner of the elevator for someone to discover. I um sometimes I write help like um cries for help on fruit and leave that in there, like an orange with sharpie, like help me, or things are getting worse on a grapefruit and just put that in the corner because I feel like that improves someone's experience. Yeah, it changes up their day a little bit. Yeah. Um, so those are small examples, but I used to um use an airport that had a really slow moving underground train that would take you in between terminals. It was a really bad underground train if you were in a hurry. It would move extremely slowly. Uh and it was all glass, so you could you'd be in one and you'd see another one going the other way, but it would just go by slowly. So it would give you opportunity to do a little performance for the people in the other car. And the performance I liked the most was heart attack, businessman heart attack.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

So that would happen. Do you remember do you ever go to Disneyland or Disney World and they had the big paddle wheeler you could ride on? Or was it like a big quadruple? Deck. It was a huge boat that would go around. I would found a location that was easily observed by everyone on one side of the boat. And I had the person who I was dating at the time a role play a thing where I'd go down on one knee and like be proposing. And then they would slap me and we would perform this for the paddle wheelers. And first they would be all you could hear them go, oh, and then when the slap, it was stage slap, but when that came, and then it was like uh erupt with laughter and chagrin. Wait, was this part this is just something you enjoyed doing, or this is just uh just another example of me sort of doing things to help people enjoy their day. Um, and so uh yes, and there's so many more things. There's so many more performances I do almost on a daily basis just to help people, you know, have a little excitement. So I totally agree that as a performer, um, you want to be able to control your performance, but there's also something about being watched, which is gratifying for somebody like me. It's like, yeah, I kind of want you to watch me a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

I want you to go follow me around and see what I'm doing, as long as I know about it, because then I can curate the experience for both of us.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Right, exactly. Although what people want is for that to never be curated. You know, they they they want that pure, and when I say they, I mean entities that are interested in, you know, selling you things or selling your data, of course, etc. Because they want they want the unfiltered, you know, pure stuff. And so it does make me wonder if, you know, maybe surveillance really does um deter um criminal behavior.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

I there's gotta gotta be something to it because I I was a a mischievous child.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

And I never did any serious criminal stuff. But I did a lot of stuff that would definitely fall into that category. And surveillance would have cut into my actions significantly. Yeah. As it is, I ended up have did have to go to a police station one time with my mom because I would been observed by somebody doing something. They claimed, uh allegedly. Oh boy. I kind of think it's reasonable to say that the serial killers have been put out of business.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Why would you say that?

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Well, they can't get away with it. They can't they might be able to do one or two, but they're gonna get caught right away. There's no way. Not with like the sophisticated forensics. What when's the last time you heard of a decent serial killer? What's the worst thing that you've ever seen hoarded?

SPEAKER_02 46:45

I helped this one person who was a hoarder. Um, they wanted to be able to, I don't know, like rent out their apartment or sublet their apartment. And so I helped them. And um I was so impressed by how much hair was in the carpet that they wanted to keep. That really surprised me.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Wait, they had hair carpet and they wanted to keep it?

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Yeah, so they had some extensions, but then they also had just hair like that they maybe thought they could do something with later. Um and they but it was all like in the bedroom. I I used to call it Bed Island because there was just this sea of stuff around every part of the bed, and you kind of had to jump from the door frame onto the bed if you were gonna use the bed. Um yeah, yeah, that was that was pretty jarring. And I also am sensitive to things on the bathroom floor, and they had a lot of like um chinchillas. No, no, no, well, no, they definitely had pets, but no chinchillas. Okay. You know, just but blankets, blankets on the bathroom floor, I think, is the kind of grossest thing to me. Oh. You know, because it's there's so much moisture. Yeah. Just seems like a recipe for mold.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

That does seem like a recipe for mold. And then what are you using those blankets for later?

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Well, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

I mean it's like oh, I know where we can get an extra blanket.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Right on this second floor covered in pubic hair, yeah. No, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

And well, you didn't mention that part. Uh I mean that's you know, I feel like that's implied.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Well, that it is we're really circling back to this bathroom subject. But and it was kind of exciting because what I got into doing is like getting a box and putting the same type of things. So there was just like a box of locks. You know, just a box of keys and locks, another box of single gloves, another box of just keys, like random keys, another box of the lamps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Box of locks sounds like a tongue twister for an actor.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

It does, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

A box of broken locks, a box of mixed locks.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

Exactly, or something, some kind of like delicious bagel treat.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Or another hair collection. Boom. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah. So do you have any smart gadgets in your place?

unknown 49:15

No.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Do you have an Alexis, a Siri? Do you have a smart dishwasher?

SPEAKER_02 49:20

I don't have any, I don't have any internet of things in my home.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Well, we know our phones are tracking us constantly, and now that they have technology, so they use other people around us, their phones, they can locate us that way, pinging off their phones so they know where we've been all day. There are things you can buy to track your kids, little Apple cells things you throw in their backpack or stick somewhere. You put it in your partner's luggage, and you get to find out where they're really going. You put it in their car. Um, and probably people listening to this right now are being watched somehow just like that by someone in their life and they don't even know it. And I'll I'll uh put a link to an article about that in the show notes too. But yeah, so there's all kinds of ways to track people, either with their permission or not. Uh-huh. Because you could theoretically could ask your school age child, do you mind if I track you? Put along with your peanut butter sandwich, you're also going to have this little tracking device. And can a kid, a 10-year-old kid, give you consent to do that? I don't know. But anyway, I'm sure that could be done. And there I think there was a Black Mirror episode about that. So that's another way to find out about this tracking stuff and how it can go wrong.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Yeah, just watch Black Mirror.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Black Mirror is really kind of we're looking for a tie-in with them any day now.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

You know, it's it's funny that that idea about a a kid being tracked. There is something so I grew up in a very small town and everybody knew everyone. How small? So small that it was under a thousand people. Um small, yeah. Yeah. But everybody knew each other, all the parents knew each other's kids, and you know, and there was a real safety with that. And and when I say safety, I mean a physical safety, but also an emotional safety. Um, because people were looking out for you. They could tell, you know, oh, it's strange, you know, so and so's grades have really dropped. What's what's going on? Like let's, you know, be I I I like the idea of a teacher's lounge where they can talk about students by their first names and everybody knows who they're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

And they share cigarettes and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Yeah, obviously. And uh but but it's a little bit sad to me that we're in a time where we have to rely on an algorithm to keep track of our children rather than the communities that we live in. Uh there I think there's a loss there.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

People are in relationships that go bad, or even before they go bad, s one partner, usually the man, in a in a male-female relationship, is using the technology to surveil their partner, to check up on them, see what they're doing, or if there's a breakup situation of some kind, they're using it to harass their partner. And so there's all these stories that I was reading about people like so they break up and all of a sudden in the middle of the night, TV comes on, really loud, or stereo, or whatever, or the thermostat is set to a hundred degrees or whatever, some incredibly impossible heat, or lights are going on and off.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

And so what they're finding out is that partners are using this as a form of electronic abuse of uh as a payback, like punishment.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Wow, what a funny, uh, what a funny evolution of gaslighting, you know? Yes, like the literal gaslight.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

So even if you're in a relationship that you think is healthy, you may still be being tracked, you may still being watched uh by a camera in the home or all of this. And it's uh alarming, I think.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

But you know, you put you put instead of like Jilted Lover um who understands tech, you know, you you put into that instead like Apple or you know some other large data holding um device providing entity. And who knows? Like maybe maybe maybe we are being gaslit in the literal sense where where our lights are dimming, or um or are there other methods that can contribute to different um you know financial benefits for the for the big brother company.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

Um I keep trying to tell Google I'm not the age that I am because I don't like the commercials it's giving me. Oh, really? So um it really, really wherever I go in the Google Empire, wherever I am, it wants to show me old guys that are ripped. Oh that's what it wants me to see. Yeah, that's all it wants me to see everywhere. I can't avoid it. So I thought I I you can go in and change your birth date. And that worked for a while, but somehow, because of the integration of all the information that's out there on me, it doesn't matter. It's ignoring that.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

It knows that I'm not 23 because it keeps showing me old guys with abs.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Yeah. And I don't want to see that.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

I don't want to see it anytime, especially in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

It's so important though. It's so important to just reinforce the lack, you know, reinforce the insecurity. Oh, yeah. So that you'll buy something or do something. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

We want you to buy the next thing.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

Uh-huh. For me, the connection between capitalism and um and privacy or surveillance is like very, very important bedfellows, you know, just very close. Right. So I often will link those um those those things. Like, okay, well, it makes sense because, you know, when your MO is just to keep making money, you lose your humanity pretty completely. And interesting. You know, the golden rule really flies out the window because you no longer really are connected to those other people.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

You know?

SPEAKER_00 55:34

You think of yourself as totally separate from the chinchilla.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Right. But the chinchilla, yeah, yeah, you do. You I mean, it's like uh describing a chinchilla as as a non-pet, right? Or whatever. Like as as it's less. And and that's that's what we are doing.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Well, I'm gonna say thank you, Star, for joining me for this episode. It's been really fun talking about this with you.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

And it was great to have you, and I hope you had a good time.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

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