SPEAKER_01 0:00

And it's cool air and it cools your brain.

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Cool it brain.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

And it cools your brain, and your body likes a cool brain.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

Not a hot brain.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

And not a hot brain.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Fair enough. That makes that checks out. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

I like it. Keep a cool brain. Yeah, just like in West Side Story. That's one of the songs. Keep cool brain. Keep cool brain. Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today, my guest is an immensely talented, super smart, and ever thoughtful Hannah. Hello, Hannah.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

Hello, Ross.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Welcome to the show. I've got to say that Hannah rode like a hundred miles on a bicycle to get here.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Five.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

It was five miles.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

And everybody, well, it could have been a hundred.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

Might as well have been five hundred.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

And everybody should be impressed by that. And welcome to all of you. Friends, as I always say, you can help us grow our community by sharing the show. If you could think of between one and three people that you could send the link to the show to to help us grow our community, please do that. That would be so helpful and we'd really appreciate it. Send it to your mom. Your mom needs to hear this show, especially this show. At the end, I'll talk about some other ways that you can help us, but right now I want to get to our discussion. I I was reminded when I was thinking about bicycling. This is not the topic. But when I was thinking about bicycling, you know, we live in and around the Portland, Oregon area. And um I've noticed living here that it's supposed to be sort of a bike-friendly community, but I find that the cars hate the bikes, and the bikes hate the cars.

SPEAKER_04 2:04

That's definitely true sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah. Yeah. But there's one thing that the bikes and cars agree on. Say all hate the walkers.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Get out of the way. I have a friendly bell, but there is angst behind it. Ding ding. Move.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah. It's a ding-ding boom. So today we know there's one thing unique to humans, one thing that clearly separates us from the rest of the animals, and something that just about all of us do, and that is crying. Crying is thought to be evolved as a way of communicating our need for attention from the group. For example, could you imagine a baby that didn't cry?

SPEAKER_04 2:51

That's the start of a horror movie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

And how would you know the little busher was hungry if it wouldn't cry? So crying was a signal. Uh also breathing. Babies need to start breathing, apparently, when they're born.

SPEAKER_04 3:05

Apparently, I came out sucking my thumb.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

You weren't crying?

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Apparently not.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

That's unusual.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

I know.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

And did they just let you go ahead and do that?

SPEAKER_04 3:16

They did. I had my thumb in my mouth and I had a cone head. It was pointy.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

I've revealed too much.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

That's I'm I don't know where to go from here. I'm stunned. Um, but thank you. Thank you for expressing that because it is crying, is a way also to express our vulnerability, not just having a cone head. Although I am I am empathic whenever I'm around a cone cone headed baby.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

I know how that feels. I really try and connect with that baby.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

So, you know, I think it was helpful in an evolutionary sense. People wouldn't take us out if we were crying because they might think, hmm, maybe this person is feeling sad, so maybe we shouldn't.

SPEAKER_04 4:01

Oh, I mean, every I think every baby wants to just stay in if you want to come out.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

But even later, as we grow up, uh and uh as we get to be bigger, larger cone head people, um, I think crying was a way to signal to the group that we were feeling shame or regret or sadness or vulnerability or injury and pain. And so it was a way for the group to support us rather than a cull us from the herd. Sure, yeah. So crying is a very social act and is probably the most human thing you can do. So um you've already um previewed a little bit of this, but I'm wondering, Hannah, when you were a kid, um, were you a kind of a kid that would cry? Was that encouraged in your family, or were Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

Yeah. So first things first.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yes, let's go.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

I'm a crier.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

You're good at it. You're good at it now.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

I'm good at it now.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

I wouldn't say it's always been the easiest thing to do, but I've always come by crying so easily. Yeah. And so honestly.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

I was so excited to talk about crying.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

I'm so glad you're here. I actually wanted to I when I first started doing this podcast a year ago, I started thinking of the people I wanted to have on my guest list. And you were one of the first people that popped into my head.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

Yeah, we've done some fun stuff together. I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Once you um broke my neck in the woods.

SPEAKER_04 5:24

I did! I don't that I wasn't even recalling that, but yes, I did.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

There's film of that somewhere. Um, that's a different story for another time. I didn't have time to cry because my neck was broken. So uh so you were a you're good at crying now, but what is so as a kid were was it encouraged?

SPEAKER_04 5:42

Yeah. Yeah. So my family was very open about emotion and what I felt often was. So we're having this big feeling, and that's great. Is it done yet? And that was the like that's been the sort of the thread that I've come by in my childhood life, into my adult life. That this this this thread of I'm crying, I'm feeling right now, but like when is it gonna be over? Or are you done yet? And the answer is always unequivocally, no, you're not done. I'm not done yet. I'm not done crying. It's only been seven minutes. Are you kidding me? I'm not done crying. You need to keep sitting here and chatting with me and holding my shoulders, right? Like, so as I was a kid, it was it was totally encouraged that, like, oh, it's crying is good, crying's okay. Yeah, yeah, and and had a wonderfully have a wonderfully intuitive, kind, sweet mother, especially.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

And a sappy father who cries now and then.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Um, and tries to model that that's okay. But uh, my mom was definitely the the intuitive, emotional thermostat of the family. Yeah, as your matriarchs often are. Right. And I remember her very, very clearly like saying, like, sounds like you need a good cry, and that just being part of the family vernacular. Sounds like you need a good cry.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

Which is lovely.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, it is. And so sh the messaging to to is it done yet, that wasn't coming from her.

SPEAKER_04 7:15

No. And so we talk about this now, where she, you know, I I for for my entire adolescence and and adult life have ridden the wave of anxiety, depression, like lots of us, most of us probably have in some which way. And just sort of teasing apart the the things that that get me going nowadays, whether that's anxiously or depressively, whatever it is, it always felt like my emotions and the way that I expressed was outsized for the input. And a little bit, always a little bit out of my control, like it would be such a such a movement of feeling that would bring me to cry. That like, hey, listen, I'm I'm in it. And now I can with certain tools and the right relationships and the right like ecosystem around me, I can like really cry and let it regulate my body. But I didn't understand how that actually served me when I was a kid. And my parents didn't either. My dad is a medical doctor, but didn't have the like strong understanding of mental health.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

So I've had big feelings, especially the big profound feelings that like bring people to tears.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

I've always connected with those so easily, yeah, but haven't been able to necessarily always metabolize those feelings enough to feel convenient for other people.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

To feel convenient.

SPEAKER_04 8:33

Or to feel like like palatable.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Because is it because I think it's too much? Other people?

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Yes, or my perception of them is that they think it's too much. Oh, they may sometimes it's the person who certainly does truly think it's too much. Right. And sometimes it's me being afraid I'm too much.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

And sometimes it's certainly like like it feels inconvenient. It feels inconvenient to the other person, and I'm a feeler and like an empathetic feeler enough that I know that they feel like they're on thin ice or out on a limb to be in the room with me when that's happening, or to be next to me when that's happening.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:09

And I'm like, hey, just you know, be the anchor here, be the rock. Right. Because I'm gonna cry. It's gonna be big. Yeah. Right? It's gonna look like I'm like I'm gonna do the heat and cry. I need to.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

Um, and I get it. It's a lot of energy.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

You know, and and we're not, I'm sure we're gonna get into it, but like we're not in a in a culture that's like, yeah, that's fine. That's totally great. Right. Have a great big breakdown for 45 minutes with your significant other. They're gonna love it.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah, yeah. It's not like Well, I think most people, if you encounter a stranger who's sobbing in a public space.

SPEAKER_04 9:49

That's never happened to me, by the way. Never have I been crying in a public park and had a number of people stop by and say, Are you, are you, are you, are you okay?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

That's what I was about to say.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

Turn them away, never. That's never not pulled from life at all.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

The best we can do is to say to somebody like that is, Are you okay? And hope to God that they say yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

Right. I really don't want to have to ask this. Are you okay?

SPEAKER_01 10:14

But yeah, but I but you know your line. I'm gonna say my line. Are you okay? And you're supposed to say you're okay. Yeah, weepy, and then I say, okay, well, I hope everything's all right, and then I'm gonna leave. But if you say anything else, like I'm involved now. Oh, I'm in a thing, and then I'm looking at my watch. Uh that's fascinating. So in a given week, how many times are you crying on average?

SPEAKER_04 10:40

Sure. Yeah, on average.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Are we doing this every day? Is it hourly? Is it once a week?

SPEAKER_04 10:46

Is it when we're out of staples? Uh is it Yeah, yeah. Right? How frequent? I would say a good like recently, just like recent memory, like in the past six to eight weeks. How often have you felt uh so I've cried probably once every couple weeks? Oh, okay. Yeah, once every couple weeks. And lately, you know, just like like riding the emotional waves of whatever's presenting itself to me. It's like it's it's lately it's been like bigger cries, yeah. Bigger, um, more personal, like by myself.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

Uh in my room, just chilling and just being like, oh, right. Yeah, I could like run around my head and say, Oh, maybe I should go and take a walk or work out or do my homework. And it's like, no, girl, you need to just like you gotta sit down and cry.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

This is great. I um I grew up in a different family environment. We weren't told not to cry, uh-huh, but there was nothing in it. There was no nobody was nobody was feeling you for crying. They weren't impressed. Um, I grew up in a big family. My mother, she was a very nice person, but she was, you know, she had a lot of kids, so she was busy. So if a kid would cry because they were upset about something or frustrated, her response to that was not are you okay, she would say, Cry. Oof. And she would leave the room.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Oof.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

So it would be like, so if it was not really an emotionally heartfelt moment, you were getting nothing out of it. So any of the tantrum crying, we didn't have any of that. There was no performative crying. Um, if you were really sad about something, yeah, we wasn't discouraged.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

But you didn't learn to receive care from that.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

No, you felt like you were on an island. And I only saw my dad cry one time my whole life. And uh I was I was a little kid, but I was so it was so interesting to see him cry because he never cried about anything. What happened? We went to church, and his sister had just died. She died young from an ill illness, and it was all like over a weekend. It was extremely unexpected. And he didn't cry during anything, and we went to church, and and in I think it's pretty common still, they read, like, you know, pray for these people who have just passed on, and she was on the list. He didn't start crying then in the church or anything. We're driving home, he's we're not, nothing's happening, and then he just starts to cry. And it was the first time and last time I ever saw him cry. How old were you? I was probably like five or six. Oh, wow, young. Yeah, and so it was like, wow, this is impressive. I also only saw him laugh hysterically one time. So I saw him cry once and then roll on the floor laughing. But other than that, he was pretty contained guy. Well, he had a temper. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Yeah, but that's easy for that's like a given for most dads in some respects, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

His temper was out a lot. His temper was like a dog, it needed to be walked regularly. So I don't remember doing a lot of crying. And I remember as a kid, I was pretty much in trouble all the time at school because I just wasn't really into school. So I was more into entertaining kids. So I was punished all the time. And I went to a Catholic school initially, and they kind of used crying as a barometer to see how effective the punishment was being. But I never cried, so my punishments got worse and worse and worse because I kept thinking that we're gonna get this kid somehow. He's gonna crack.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

You're like, I'm not wired that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

I never crack.

SPEAKER_04 14:34

So oh man.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

So flash, flash, fast forward. We could flash forward, but that sounds weird. Uh so fast flashing forward, we uh now we look at Ross and uh I cry all the time.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Oh, that's nice to hear.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

And and I've heard this true, uh it's anecdotally true. There's no science behind it, but that men cry more as they get older. But like, holy cow, I watched uh the new version of West Side's story last night. Okay. Okay, so I've seen the original version 10,000 times, I've seen it on stage, I've seen the movie a million times, I know exactly what's gonna happen. You know, blow for blow. I know all the songs, I know everything. I'm bawling my head off last night at this thing. Yes. And so that is possibly understandable, but I will now cry like at stupid commercials.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

So, yep, same like in my family vernacular, like that I mentioned before. That's what we would we would like to poke at my dad, uh, or or we'd poke at my dad with like, oh, well, dad will cry at a progressive commercial.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Like that's what happens though.

SPEAKER_04 15:46

They're not sponsoring this podcast that I know of, so but we're available. We're available. Uh yeah, so right the the the sappiest moments. I'm curious about like which parts of West Side's story, like dream sequence, dancing. Which part? How about the opening credits? I heard a chord and I was moved.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yeah, no, really the songs. Yeah, there's a place for us. Oh but all of it and the the ending scene, which is dream. I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't been on the earth for a hundred years.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

Statute of spoiler limit limitations is out on that one. I think you can talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

I think there's a whole fresh crop of people, though, who are watching that movie and they've never heard about it or something.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

Gen Z, we're gonna spoil West Side's story for you. You're never gonna get over it.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

You just have to pick a side. It's sharks or jets. Uh stay cool, boy. So um, yeah, so that happens uh very frequently. I will tell you though, um so when I cry, so there's the I don't know if this pertains to you, but there is a like first floor to my crying, which is for pretty much like bus stops every day regular run-of-the-mill, generic crying that I do, which is pretty ordinary, nothing dramatic.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Okay, can I ask you a question? Please.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Do you need a tissue for this tier one crying? Usually not.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Like maybe like a little bit of your sleeve is sufficient. You can wipe it just with your little finger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah, but it's nothing.

SPEAKER_04 17:22

And then I just want to get an embodied sort of feel of your experience of crying.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

I think that is the that is the strangled crying. That's like the controller. Strangled. Like I could be in a movie theater and people wouldn't ask me to be removed. I mean, I could probably maintain, but I discovered I have a whole nother gear that I never ever knew about.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Um, and I discovered this uh a year ago um when uh the the dog that I had for the last 13 years passed away. Now I've had dogs my whole life, and everyone who's a pet owner knows that losing a pet can be traumatic. But um, this was unusually so. And I've both of my parents have passed at different times, not at the same time. I didn't kill them, just when I put that out there. They've both passed. They're both passed. It was took me 10 minutes. Oh no. God, it was horrible. And I didn't cry.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

Um and that's why we're here.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

So that was very sad. And I cried.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

Ross, was this your black dog that you brought to Slosh Ball? Yes, my black dog. Okay, I lost my cat in July. Oh, I'm sorry. So I'm just with you. I hear you.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

So he passed away, and I would cry every five minutes. Um, but it wouldn't be uh anything that would resemble crying. Yeah, I you could never I could never use this in a performance because it was so out of control. And here's the weird thing. So it was a full body let go of of sadness, but I it the out of my mouth emanates this high pitch kind of squealing. Whale? Was it a whale? It's I'm just gonna give you an idea of the pitch. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

I'm gonna turn my levels down a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

I'm not gonna scream into the mic, I promise. But it's it's just this is just giving you an idea of the pitch. It's about like this.

unknown 19:27

Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

It's like that coming out of me, and I and it's like a full body, water works, tears everywhere. And that I never experienced with a human being ever. There's nothing in my life where I've ever that it's that that was that emotionally evocative. That's some deep wiring for sure. And uh it is it's intense. It's like a workout. You were saying before, like what do I need to do? Run a mile or cry. Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

Crying is more exactly, yeah, to to re pressure valve, I call it a lot, like like a pressure valve release. Yeah. There's often times when I feel it's a tightening in my throat, and then it's a tightening on the sides of my guts. Yeah. And after I cry, I'll feel that like that like that sort of like unraveling in my throat and in my guts. Right. And I can't and and the anxious disposition that I do have, I don't want to achieve that by stressing myself out more by like taking a run or biking up the hill. Like the cry feels so much more attainable to me in some ways, and then more meaningful as well.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Because when I can like loosen up into it and actually like use a good cry to like help my body truly regulate its system, it's like, it's the best thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

It does feel really good.

SPEAKER_04 20:52

The best thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

I'm not crazy about that high pitched noise.

SPEAKER_04 20:55

It sounds like so, yeah, back to that. That's super interesting because there are like there are tones and and sounds and whatnot that just like like that is I I sound grossly new agey when I say this, but I'm saying it anyway, with like that kind of vibration.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Or or or that tone um becoming a part of your physiology, right? Like, and that's how you like physiologically express this complex feeling that you've not felt before or since, but still can access. Yeah. You can still travel down that pathway. Like how subtle and mysterious that is.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah, it's it's really amazing. It does sound like a pig stuck in a phone booth.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

There's that. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

So there it there's an alarming quality to it for people uh in the room.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

I often wonder about my upstairs housemate when I'm like having these sessions. Uh I often wonder if he's like, Does does she need it's like it's like being on the curb at the park. Like, Is she okay? Should I go knock on the door?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Probably okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

But she's this this is minute forty three. Is she okay?

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Is there a movie that reliably will get you going?

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Oh yeah. Um The Sad, the hat the sad half of Titanic. Moulin Rouge. The not sad half of Titanic, I will watch any day with glee.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Well, you know, there are several Titanic movies. So you're talking about the one with What?

SPEAKER_04 22:25

There are several Titanic movies, Ross? There's actually one Titanic.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

You're talking about the one with Leo.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

I I like that one too. But the sad half is uh which part uh it's the latter half. When they're drowning.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

Uh Gen Z spoilers.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Or we talk about ice ice.

SPEAKER_04 22:43

The ship breaks in half.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah. What?

SPEAKER_04 22:48

Now you have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

But is there like a moment, is it when they're like when he's slipping into the definitely not there.

SPEAKER_04 22:56

No, definitely not there. That's a it's like like frozen Leo is a little creepy. Icicle Leo, not your thing. Not into that. Wow. Where will I? Oh, oh, easy, easy. Titanic people are already like, duh, I know which time it is. It's the musicians on deck. Oh, the band played on that final song, and then you get the pan of the captain and the couple in the bed. And the oh God, oh god, here it is. The the woman telling a an Irish an Irish uh folk folk floor story to to her two red-haired children as the Titanic sinks and water seeps in under the that's the part where you're crying, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's tucking in her two cherub children, knowing that they're oh god.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, it's so it's such a tragic story. And by the way, that band played on is a real that really happened by all accounts.

SPEAKER_04 23:53

One time they re-released Titanic in 3D.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Oh, what was that like?

SPEAKER_04 23:58

I went to it. It's the only movie I've ever seen in 3D.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

Um, so I don't know if what my how my experience stacks up. Um, but I put on the glasses.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Had the glasses.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

I was there by myself.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

That's sad right now.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

No, it's not. It's not sad to go to movies or dinner by I know you're joking, but I'm just putting it out there. No, please do. That if you are going to movies and dinner comfortably by yourself, my friend, keep doing it.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

You're doing it right.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

Because I was killing it seeing Titanic in 3D. And when you watch Titanic as many times as I have, most often when you were a teenager in the basement of your childhood home, while you're for some reason running on a treadmill, you just watch the first good half.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

I'm talking a lot about Titanic, but you watch the first good half and then you're done with your workout, so it's all good. Um, but then you what you can you can really drop in and watch that second half.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:54

It's nuts. But I watch okay, so it was 3D, and it was so huge that it was moving on a completely different level because I could see in detail Kate Winslit's red hair and see the sparkly beads on her dress, and like it was just so much more visceral. And I remember that being moving. Like I went to it thinking, like, oh yeah, of course, I'll go see it, it'll be fun. And I sat down, and as I watched, it was like, oh, this is some like this is some some of my core stitching in my emotional world. This like this emotional experience of this movie.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Uh the second half of that movie is like a key that unlocks Yes.

SPEAKER_04 25:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

That's really fascinating. I have a movie like that too, but first I want to emphasize what you were saying is that if you go places by yourself and you're happy about it, keep doing it.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Because that's, I mean, that's been maybe the last two years.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah, we we've all been through the pandemic. I have no problem doing things by myself. I was fine with it. I'm a mix.

SPEAKER_04 25:55

I'm a major pack animal. Yeah. I say like I want to be with my pack. And I did I got to experience that in the in the two years or so that I was with my past sweetie. Yeah. I was living with him and his 10-year-old son during most of stay-at-home times. It was lovely. Oh, that's great. I was laid off. My sweetie at that time, he was a teacher, so they left school and didn't come back, and he set up an office in the basement. And so his kiddo, who's lovely and I had a good relationship with, he and I are upstairs doing school all day. I'm playing housewife, supporting both of them while one of them teaches in the basement and one learns upstairs.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

And so I was just nested up the whole time and had this little team of folks. Um, and and kiddo's mama too was very much a part of our crew. And I was like comfortably cared for. And I often think he and I aren't together anymore, but I often think that, like, oh my goodness, it could have been so different. Yeah. And I think about my my friends being single and and me being single now and how it feels now, and how it felt so different. Right. I just a year ago, 18 months ago, whatever it was. Oh gosh.

unknown 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

I'm so glad to have landed where I've landed and lived where I lived. But yeah, I'm curious being um, how was being single for you, or or however whatever name you give it, how was that for you?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

So I definitely had some tough segments, but not being with someone, I think ultimately has probably been a blessing because it's uh among other things that you take away from this period of time, and a lot of people have told me they've taken away different things that are not that are not altogether negative. One of the things I took away is just a of just I really pulled back and really took a look at some of the choices I was making, and I've made a whole bunch of different choices. Um what? Um well, how about this podcast? Boom.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Okay, great example.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

That was one thing where I was just sitting there going, well, I'm just gonna do a podcast. I did I've done a lot of writing, I've focused more on um, you know, uh doing better with my Italian. I have um made an effort to be much more present for people because I've you know I was not valuing that as the way I you know probably um would like to. So I think just in a nutshell, I have a lot more gratitude because you're sort of forced to look at what you have and really appreciate it when things are bad. I mean, you don't have to go down that road, but that's what happened for me.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

Yeah, it's an option, and we get a little bit more time to consider that option these days.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

So my movie is Cinema Paradiso, it's an Italian movie, makes me cry every time. Doesn't matter. I can watch it back to back and I'll cry the whole time. Is this tier one crying or tier two crying? Well, it's only tier one crying, but I have not watched it in a long time to see because now that I've gone to tier two, I'm wondering if that's opened up a portal.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Are there other avenues to tier two?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Can we get there?

SPEAKER_04 29:03

Oh, we can get there. Can I put you in? You can get there.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Can I put you in tier two today?

SPEAKER_04 29:09

What do I have to do to put you in tier two? Do you have a tier three?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

I maybe. I mean, tier two is so alarming. Oh because it's such a it's a complete loss of control. There's and I think part of growing up in my family was there was a sort of a you were expected to control yourself. And so being in a situation now in the tier two crying, maybe we skip tier two. This could be tier three.

SPEAKER_04 29:38

That's what I was thinking just a second ago. I was like, I was going to ask you, what's between tier one and two? Because those seem like like if we're looking at a spectrum of crying, maybe like those seem far apart to me.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yeah, they are. I think you're absolutely right. I don't think that's the unexplored territory. A middle tier would be interesting because there would probably some more um physical commitment to it, but maybe there wouldn't be the squealing noise. Sure. Yeah. I don't think if I was doing that in a park, no one would ask me if I was okay. They'd be looking for the fastest route out of there. Sure. They don't want nobody wants that.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

Um, are you how do you feel afterwards? Like it's it's the it's the morning after the afternoon after. Like, how do you feel after tier two?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Uh, even if it's right after, it feels like a tremendous release. Like I can feel it in every molecule of my body. Are you tired? It's it's can it's a little, yeah. You feel like you've done something physical. Uh-huh. Let's talk about some benefits that I read about and see what you think. So, number one, crying detoxifies the body. Okay, I'm just gonna stop you right there. Stop me right there.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

Detoxify, it's dubious, dubious territory to detox things. Uh detoxes the body. I don't know. Your liver does a pretty good job of that. I've heard. I've heard. Um, but anyhow, detoxifies the body. Don't know. Well, what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Well, first of all, we need to break this down into reflex tears, continuous tears, and emotional tears.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

Feed me.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I want to hear about all of those. Reflex tears, clear debris like smoke and dust from your eyes.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

So that could be just the crying you do when you're riding your bike or when I yeah, when I rode my bike over here.

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Continuous tears, which is you're familiar with for the 45 minutes, lubricate your eyes and help protect them from infection.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

Look at me then.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

That's why you're so healthy.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Protected eyes.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

You've you're not getting infected. And then emotional tears, they claim, may have uh health benefits. So continuous tears contain 98% water, 2% kerosene, emotional tears contain stress hormones and other toxins. In quotation marks, always in quotation marks. I think a lot of this stuff is, you know, up for debate. But that they there's some thought that maybe these stress hormones are flushed out of your system through crying.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

So uh I can definitely feel a like a sort of muscle release, like a physiological sort of like I was talking about in my throat and then in my in my belly and stuff. And I definitely feel like a loosening across my shoulders. Yeah. Yeah. Loosening in my belly.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Something happens that's good. It's a release. Yep. The rest of the science behind this needs to be looked at. But if you're thinking about going on some sort of a cleanse, forget it. Just cry.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Stop these cleanses, dude. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 32:42

Right. Well, yeah, and like have healthy relationships around you. So if you like feel shame about crying, somebody can gently tap you on the shoulder.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

I need to find someone who can deal with a pig squealing in a phone booth.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

There are people that that for whom that's like easy.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

That's my pickup line.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

And not even like easy, but just like like, hey, grief is so real. It is. You know, and and like there are people certainly who can like physically hold that and it doesn't have to be a big deal. I love that journey. I love like traveling to the other side of a big cry.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:17

And like, and like feeling connected to someone if if somebody hung with me through it. It's usually my best friend Danielle. Shout out to Danielle.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Shout out.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Oh, God, I love her. Um it's so it's you I I can feel regulated in my nervous system after a good cry. And it feels like the only journey to that.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Perfect time to say nervous system because crying is thought to be one of the best ways to self-soothe, and they believe it activates the parasympathetic nervous system. Oh, yeah. Which is your body's resting system.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

Yeah, back to neutral, back to safe, back to like, okay, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

They think it maybe dulls pain.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Um, they believe that oxytocin and other endogenous opioids, otherwise known as endorphins, are released.

SPEAKER_04 34:08

Which leads to intimacy if you are indeed sharing that space with another, right? Oxytocin just makes us want to cuddle up and attach.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Yeah. It's attachment is what we need. So, yeah, these feel-good chemicals are supposed to ease physical pain, emotional pain. Um, and so what's wrong about that? These are natural chemicals. It's okay to be high on them. So self-soothing. Uh it improves your mood.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Supposedly.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Eases pain, crying.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Sobbing may lift your spirits. Also, and this I like this one, when you sob, you take in many quick breaths of air. They do. And it's cool air. And it cools your brain. Cool it, brain. And it cools your brain, and your body likes a cool brain.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Not a hot brain.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

And not a hot brain.

SPEAKER_04 35:04

Fair enough. That makes that checks out. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

I like it. Keep a cool brain. Get it, keep yeah, just like in West Side Story. That's one of the songs. Keep cool brain. Keep cool brain. All right. If you're feeling blue, it's a good way. Crying is a good way to uh get support. It signals to your tribe that you need help. We talked about that. Are you okay? People might say that to you. I still think we need to work on that toe as a group of humans.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

Yeah, right. Well, because then we go into the we then we go into the territory of crying in public, which has a whole social dimension. Right. Uh you know, gendered dimension. Talk about dimensions.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Talk about the gendered dimension.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Yeah, yeah. I in my this has been a journey with my relationship with crying for sure. Um, as like as i i especially in the workplace, I will say, right? So if we think about crying as like, oh yeah, it's healthy, I'm on my journey with it. A major sticking point in this conversation to me then becomes like, well, God, like I'm comfortable with it. Is the world?

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yes. You know, like like what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 36:09

I'm comfortable. I it it's it's heartbreaking and difficult for me, and I experience it directly. Um, I'm becoming a teacher right now. I'm in grad school, and it's an emotional experience to like shift careers and change. And not to mention I'm with like 26 wonderful eight and nine-year-olds every day, and they're so special and so sweet. So it's an emotional experience. And I'm in grad school too, trying to trying to get my license and and get all this stuff figured out. And so certainly in my in my heart, I'm like, yeah, girl, you've earned your cries. But I recently cried for the first time in front of my cooperating teacher. And even and the kids even caught wind of it too, that I was that I had teared up. I I got so frustrated with uh with a piece of work I was doing for my school, for my license. It was very important to me.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:03

And and I I so reluctantly like like had to let this happen and let my cooperating teacher be there for me.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:13

Uh and I've always struggled with having big feelings and not knowing where to put them in the workplace. Right. And then again, that that time dimension being pinged. Like I know you're having an important feeling. That's great. Are you done yet? Because you're biking to work right now. Right. And you do have to do that in a somewhat regulated sense, but like, oh God, for years that would just hurt. And this is a journey with my mental health as well. Right. To sort of regulate that. And I'm in a much more regulated place as I learn more and more about myself, but still believe so much in like in like healthy, comfortable spaces to simply let loose physiologically and cry, and to let that be socially okay, to let that not mean that I am an emotional wreck who's unprofessional and unstable, or or a millennial snowflake who has too many big feelings and is so easily offended.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:14

Right. Like I'm like, I'm a feeling human deeply. And there are going to be times that I need to like this is my main way to efficiently release, get to the other side of these this is objectively like a difficult place to be.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:32

And I have a fear of letting that be so in the workplace, especially in front of men. Especially in front of men. Because I feel like it's much more comfortable with women who are or with femme folks, whomever, with the feminine, it's easier to cry.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

So when men see women cry, they think what?

SPEAKER_04 38:58

So yeah, if we if we subscribe to the like the like heteronorm and just go like, okay, men and women.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 39:05

I feel like there is a closing up instead of an opening up. There, in my experience, there is a heightening of tense feelings rather than the release that I'm searching for.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

I got the impression, and maybe you weren't saying this, but I got the impression you were saying that when a woman or a f a female identifying person cries in front of a male identifying person, that that evokes certain behavior or feelings in the man that are not helpful.

SPEAKER_04 39:33

Yes, absolutely. It's an anxiety of being close to big emotion.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Okay, so it makes them it makes them uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

It makes somebody uncomfortable that they don't know how to hang with it, they don't know how to fix it, they don't necessarily know how to put how to put their arm around you or help you physi physiologically go through this experience to regulate your body. Yeah. And like respect, that's a big learning curve. This was years in the in the making for my understanding of this own the crying journey. So it's like no shade to the men that I have been with who have struggled with being there for me in the ways that I would like them to be there. Yeah. But I do keep getting evidence that that like there's this anxiety about being there for somebody in these big feelings.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Public crying, I mean, that's I mean, it that's so situational because like if I'm flying across the country in a plane, I'm sitting there in my middle seat with my used bag of peanuts or whatever it is, and the pilot comes on and he or she is sobbing. I don't want that.

SPEAKER_04 40:32

You know that Saturday Night Live, like that they do this in the flight attendant pit. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, uh the pilot wanted me to come out here. He is crying. The pilot said that we're gonna hit some very, very rough air.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

He's nervous. He's on the floor praying. Everything's gonna be okay. Because he believes in the right Jesus. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

So you're sitting on an airplane, you're crying at the end of the descendants. Uh, that's what that's mine. I cried on an airplane to a George Clooney movie. Don't tell anyone. But then, like, the person next to you is also crying, perhaps. This like dude sitting next to me, and we both like take off our headphones at the end of the movie, and we're like, hey, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Hey, what up? Can I use your sleeve for a minute? Um, yeah. So I think there's some public crying, and then I'm not sure how I feel about um bad people crying when they're caught. Uh-huh. I shouldn't say bad people, but people who've done something clearly wrong, and then they do a performative.

SPEAKER_04 41:35

I immediately thought of children when you said that. They're assholes sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

We gotta round the little whipper snappers up.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

Yeah. Because that's how I've experienced it most recently, where it's like, okay, little one, listen, you got called out because you were fidgeting under your little get whatever it was.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 41:55

Hey, girl, I get that you need to cry and you're super upset, but like, hey, you got called out. It's gonna be okay. The performative big tears. Yeah, yeah. But then also understanding, like, oh, I get feelings and I get like, oh, if you felt called out and punished, like, of course you're gonna cry a lot.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

But but it it's kind of tough to feel the empathy, you know. But I I think a lot of that, you know, we've learned from our ancients who would do that as a way of letting the group know, hey, I get it, I messed up.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

And I feel bad about it. So you don't have to kill me. Because that by the you know, back then they would just hit you with a club and that would be it.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

If you were crying, if you were like really upset.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

No, if you did something wrong that threatened the welfare of the group, you'd get the club and you'd be out.

SPEAKER_04 42:39

Yeah, but if you but if you showed remorse and perhaps cried.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Obviously, we evolved from the people that survived to this point were good criers. Crying helped them. Okay. So that's why it's there for us. If crying didn't help us, we wouldn't do it. So crying is that. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 42:57

Yeah, sure. From like an evolutionary standpoint, right? It wouldn't exist were it not selected for.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

It signals people that we need something or that we feel what you know we should be feeling, that we have, but it can also be manipulative or feel that way.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

Yeah, like anything with human nature.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

And then the last public the public crying that I want to call out or at least speak about is when someone has done something to upset you and you're the one that it's been done to. Yes. But they cry. And it's almost as if they're telling you, look, that thing that I did to you, look what it's doing to me.

SPEAKER_04 43:35

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Feel bad for me because I was a jerky.

SPEAKER_04 43:38

That's the conversation with with when white people talk about racism, and when and right, when when uncomfortable white folks are called out or or gently nudged in the direction of looking at their own internalized bullshit, right? And then the discomfort of of of that leading to tears that miss the point entirely.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

That's mostly where I I That's what what resonates for me whenever you say that is just like oof, the uncomfortable white tears, which like we know by now are not helpful, right? Or or that's something right where it's like, hey, the privacy of your own home or your other white buddies, please, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Like, well said. Well said. Uh another benefit is that uh crying helps babies sleep.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

Let it out, babies.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

They say that babies will that are allowed to cry sleep longer and don't wake up as much. Now, I will tell you, I had a baby once until I got caught. No, I had I I had I had a kid, my wife and I decided we were not going to run up and get her every time she cried. After she got old enough, you know, to like a few months into it. And the first time that we tried to do that, it was so hard. We were like just sitting there on the floor, like, oh my god, we got we gotta go up, we gotta go up. But we didn't. And true enough, that kid started to sleep longer, go to bed faster, but there was a consequence. Flash forward again, fast flashing forward.

SPEAKER_04 45:16

Fast flash.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

A few years, like the kid became like four or five, and then it went through this whole phase where it would get up in the middle of the night and creep around down to our bedroom and s cry outside the door.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

Like a sweet little pup, like a little puppy.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Yeah, and it was disgusting.

SPEAKER_04 45:39

Like a tier one, tier two?

SPEAKER_01 45:42

It was tier two. She would go full into it, like it, like it was horrible. And so the first time that happened, of course, you know, we responded to it, and the second time, but then we realized, oh, this is a thing we can't. So it was like it was like a latent like payback for all that time.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

She had stored it up. Every parent is trying to do what they think is best and doing what works. Oh, we didn't like the kid.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

We were fond of her. Yeah, I mean, however, she was okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

I mean, she had her moments. Do you think comedians or people who are funny or deeply sad people who need to cry?

SPEAKER_04 46:17

I think that, yeah, yeah, definitely. I would argue that more than sad, comedians are cynical. I if if I was more I would be more comfortably c I would be more comfortable generalizing that comedians to me come off as cynical. For improv for me helps me work with my cynicism. Whereas I feel like a lot of uh stand-up comedy, it's like it's really reveling in the cynicism. And that's medicine for some people. Respect, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Right. Well, I mean, it does uh I mean, stand-up comedy does provide a window into the human condition that most people are afraid to climb through. So I think it it's uh it's great in that sense. I would say that the cynic is a disappointed optimist.

SPEAKER_04 47:06

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

And the disappointed optimist is someone who wanted to believe in the world a certain way, but it didn't go that way. And so now so now they have that edge, yeah, and that like this isn't good, and here's why.

SPEAKER_04 47:19

I hear grief in that.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

But that's where the to me, underneath if you strip all that away, um, that's where the sadness is. Yeah. I did this with my family. Um, we've so we have uh last couple years, every time it's somebody's birthday, we have a Zoom call where everybody's on. And so I got on there and everybody's focused on me because it's my birthday. And I say, now look, I know most of you have known that my whole life I've presented this super extra personality with you know, just always the life of the party, a lot of energy, a lot of zany, a lot of crazy. Can confirm. And I know that I know that you know that underneath that whole clown mask is a sad little boy who's just feels vulnerable and disappointed. And then if you peel that layer away, what you find is a bonobo. It's wrinkly. And they had that I had them, I had them all the way, and then I say, at the end, it's a gibbon.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

It's like the little Voldemort that you put in the cauldron uh in Harry Potter 4. The little or the or the Voldemort. Another take two, or the Voldemort that's underneath the bench when in the movie when Harry goes to that weird heaven between space.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Oh, I forgot about the between space. And there's a little the Catholics call that limbo. Well, they don't call their limbo's out. I like it when a religion just says something's not there anymore.

SPEAKER_04 48:56

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Because when I was a kid, they told her told us there was a place called limbo.

SPEAKER_04 49:00

Oh, it's the the space between the space between that's right.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

It's the space between. It was like not as good as purgatory, yeah, but it was better than hell.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Uh-huh. It's it's like uh the afterlife's DMV. Just take a number. Take a number.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

I was kind of shooting for limbo.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Yeah. I felt like that was about the right level of aspiration for me.

SPEAKER_04 49:25

Because like binaries, right? Like binaries rarely help us feel like like okay, right? So like, uh, well, I'm not all good. I'm not right. But I'm certainly not like I'm not all bad. There's gotta be another place for me.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

I knew I wasn't getting into heaven. Sure. But I didn't want to go to hell. I felt like that was an unfair situation. Yeah, sounds painful too. Well, it's just it's eternal. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 49:50

If it weren't eternity, yeah, like I would visit. It's a couple of weeks. Are you concerned for my soul?

SPEAKER_01 49:57

I am, yes. I it sounds like it. I am concerned for your soul. Oh, I am concerned for it. I want to thank you for doing this. I it's been so great talking to you about crying.

SPEAKER_04 50:08

Uh, it's been a privilege. What a what a um homey topic for me. Thanks for choosing me for this one.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

And no one will ever know this or believe it, but I didn't know that you were a crier when I asked you to do this. Brilliant topic great. How would I have known that?

SPEAKER_04 50:24

Well, I don't know. We've done some we've done some personal-ish work together. We've done shows here.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Personal-ish work. We've done some personal that's a hard word for me. Personal niche. Personal-ish. Personal-ish. We've done some personal-ish work together. It involved me getting my head snapped off.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

But that wasn't, yeah, you certainly weren't getting a crying vibe from me there. That was so fun.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Yeah, it was sort of fun. Um, and um, but thanks for doing it. It's just been great having you. And thanks to all of you for joining us for this episode. As I said at the beginning, you can really help us by sharing the show. That's the number one thing. Share it any way you can with anyone you can. And as I said, think of one to three people in your life that you think would enjoy this show and send them the link. Or if you're feeling extremely bold, post a link to the show on your social meads and help us that way.

SPEAKER_04 51:18

I'm just gonna I'm just gonna say that it would be a fun game if you could share the show with someone named Sharon. Share the show with Sharon. My first girl talks about. Yeah, smash the subscribe button. Has Sharon subscribed yet, Ross? Share the show with Sharon.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

We had a falling out, shall we say? Perfect opportunity to reconnect. Uh maybe if I'd cried more, she would have liked that pig crying. Uh, but thank you really for helping us. You can follow us on Instagram or Twitter. And if you're listening through an app that allows you to rate the show, give us the highest rating if you like what we're doing. If it allows you to review the show, give us a glowing review. Those kinds of things help other people, Sharon or otherwise, find the show. So that really helps us.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

Catherine.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

There's any number of names that we could say. Also, if you're feeling extremely motivated, we are on Patreon and we are completely independent. We are not sponsored by Progressive Insurance or anyone else. So any help you can provide us is really appreciated. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are crying at a pig like pitch or merely just someone watching the second half of Titanic, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody. Goodbye. Perfect.