SPEAKER_01 0:00

Like going for a massage, and the person that gives you a great massage is not a masseuse. Right. They're just somebody named Otto who was rando outside of the building.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Yeah, really good. My name's Otto, and uh my talent is I'm good with my hands. That's what I'm told.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Welcome to another episode of Spells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today, my guest is the Brainy, bold, embracing Madeline!

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Hello, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

And welcome everyone, embracing or otherwise. You can help us grow this community and you know how, and that is to share the show with people you know. Tell them what you like about it, uh, share your favorite episode, post it on your social media. That can really, really help us get to our goal, which is to take over the world. Now, Madeline.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Yes, Ross.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I want to talk to you about something that I don't fully understand.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Um, and I know that you are gonna have a perspective. Part of the part of my reaction to this topic, which I'm about to introduce, is that I don't ordinarily think of myself as a naive person. I lived a long time, I've traveled the world, I've spent a lot of time doing creative things with very creative, unusual people. Uh, and so I feel like I'm a person of the world and a pretty open-minded, flexible thinking, willing to kind of see things and experience new things. I have all these thoughts about myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

And then I read an article like this, and then I feel like I don't know if I know anything about how the world works.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Okay. This is a good introduction. I'm excited to find out what this is about.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

We also know there's all kinds of jobs out there for people to do, and with the internet, it creates all of these opportunities.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

You know, things that people wouldn't have thought about before as a way of making money from other people, providing various services and creating content, even doing a podcast, which is not something you would have thought of 15 years ago or even 10 years ago, probably for most people would have just felt like, how would I even do that? Unless I were a famous person. We've proved that you don't have to be famous. Anyone can have a podcast, and you don't have to do, and you don't have to know anything.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

There we go.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Everyone's qualified. That's you know, that's the criteria. So uh I was reading, so you've heard about this uh website, I guess is the best way to call it, called OnlyFans.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

I guess.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

And I I guess it's not exclusively for people uh um doing sex work-related things, or but it's kind of big. Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

My understanding is that it's skews that way heavily.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Skews that way. And it's a way for people who are um doing some type of uh sex work or modeling work or whatever the proper way to. I don't know if there's a difference in how you describe it. If you're taking pictures or doing videos of yourself and you're in some state of undress, or you're selling some sort of sexualized version of yourself to the internet, I don't know if that classifies as sex work or something else, or just modeling, or I don't know what it's called. Do you?

SPEAKER_03 3:27

I I think, man, that's a great question, actually. I don't know that I'm qualified to answer that.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

I have more.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

My instinct is that it it has to do with the intent behind it and that what you are describing would fall under the umbrella of sex work, yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Well, it's being done for money.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

So they so whatever it is, whatever you're doing, whether it's a live, whether it's video, whether it's just still pictures, whether it's chat, whether it's whatever it is, right? The idea is somebody's paying you to put that material out there. They're paying you for that. So it's that. So I already knew about all that. In fact, it's it's of course taken off during the pandemic when people who were doing things in person realized, oh, I can't do that anymore. How am I gonna survive? How am I gonna pay my bills? I can do it online, I can do it through something like OnlyFans, where you get connected to people who are willing to subscribe to your page or your feed, uh, and they'll tip you depending on what you what service.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

I've certainly heard compelling arguments made that in some ways, in many ways, that can be more ethical than other forms of pornography consumption, in that you are buying a service directly from someone who you can support.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Right. Exactly. It's there's two things I like about it. It's more likely to be a direct relationship, so there's no middle person exploiting it.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

And it's safer. True. Because you never have to actually meet anybody in person.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

So you're not exposed to the risks that come along with meeting strangers, and you're not exposed to the risk of other uh diseases and germs those people might have on their person.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Right. And they're not exposed to yours either.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

So it's you know, if you're if you are a sex worker, you d also don't necessarily know who the person you're working with, what their situation is.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

And you can set your own hours and work as much as you want. And so I knew about all this. This was all I thought this was a cool development in the sex work world. Um, thought it was good for everybody who was into it and more empowering and all those good things. I also knew because I did a previous episode on people who uh are in uh specialize in domination, uh specifically financial domination, where they um uh will ask people to send them money in exchange for humiliating them.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

And that people were that people that are into that, and I just thought, well, that's and they can do it all online. I was like, this is this is amazing.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

This is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

This is an opportunity, and I just you know, I I think if you've got the talent to pull that off, that's so fantastic to say, hey, I'm going on a trip and I need you to pay for it, and somebody or somebody's will do that and they feel good about it.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Yeah, and you get the everybody walks away happy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

And so it's like great. So I already knew about that part of it. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

So so so far, so far I'm uh yeah, we both are we both know what's going on so far.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah, so far. So I started reading this article about you know this the way that OnlyFans is operating now and a lot of other things uh like this. And that is there are companies now, little fledgling companies that are essentially management companies. Oh and so they they going back to the sort of quintessential middle person, so they're like that. So they're they they get models to like sign up with them, okay, and then they handle everything. So the model has to do, you know, the video or the photos or whatever they're sharing of their uh their person and their sexuality. So that's they're creating that content, but everything else the management company does.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Which includes, you know, um, you know, managing the pages and also managing the uh subscribers.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Okay. That part could potentially be positive. This seems this part of it at least seems like something that would be very dependent on the person running the management and what that relationship is between those two people.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Right. And how much they're, you know, how much they're taking.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Yes, and whether they are providing services that match up with what the cut that they are asking for, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

So here's what they do. So they uh they run the accounts and they handle all of that, they do all the marketing on social media, they write all of their daily posts, which theoretically the model is writing. Right, right. They're not writing them, the management team is.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

And they even handle direct messaging sales. So they're chatting with the subscribers, pretending to be the model, but they're not because a model can only like when they they interviewed a model or two who just will do everything on their own, kind of the thing we were talking about, which is hey, it's totally entrepreneurial. You do everything yourself, you create your content, you manage your content, you interact with subscribers, and you take all the money. Right. But you can only do someone was saying like they spend like six have to do like six hours a day of just interacting with people. Yeah. Because it turns out with a lot of these um uh sex sites, is that what people are really seeking is the connection. They're lonely.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

So it's not even about the sex so much, it's about like feeling like I have an online girlfriend.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

I have somebody who I can call and or text and they'll respond and ask me how my day is. And they're like always there. Right. And they're interested.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Because I'm paying them to be there. But that's that's great. If that's working for you, that's great. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

But these management companies will uh impersonate the model, uh-huh, usually women, in conversations with their subscribers in order to sell more stuff, like more access to more videos or more pictures or situations. And that has created a uh cottage industry of a group of people called chatters.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

And chatters are people all over the world who are willing to um talk to subscribers and say sexy phone.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

Well, so we've we've reinvented the phone sex hotline, yeah, but connected to the account of someone else.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Right. Right. And that's the way to make the most money. That's how these management companies and then they claim the models make more money that way too, and they're not involved. They don't have to do any of it.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Right. So I'm sure that's situational.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

So people who are employed as chatters might make as little as three dollars an hour. A lot of them are from Eastern Europe, Africa, and all across Southeast Asia. Um, so they're they're wranged up by these management groups.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Three dollars an hour, jeez.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Um it they're typically in developing countries where labor is cheaper, and it allows the models to step away from that element of it, which can be a hassle, which can be time consuming, which can be annoying, which can be you know probably depressing sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Some of the models come from poorer countries as well, and they may not have the English skills to interact with American subscribers. So they'll hire somebody in the Philippines to be the chatter.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

So you have maybe a model in South America, and you have a customer in the United States in Chicago, and you have a chatter in the Philippines, and you have some guy in Miami sitting on a pool deck who's running the whole thing and making money as well, making a lot of money. So I'm thinking about the layers of this, and I was like trying to think about is there a is there a problem here?

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Is there a victim here? Man, it's also situational, right? I think I have two two thoughts, two immediate thoughts. One is that this is not the kind of uh I'm gonna say scheme, but I mean in the very genuine sense of like it is a uh you know, a plot, a plan, an invention, a scheme. This is not the sort of scheme that exists only in the sex work industry. This happens with all kinds of different businesses that want to have online marketing and don't have the time or energy to do it. When you are talking to Target online, the chances that you're actually talking to somebody who works in a Target store are pretty small. You're talking to a chatter, basically. That happens in general in all sorts of industries, this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

So what you're saying is if I have a problem with my cell phone and I call the company, I may not be talking to anybody that really works for that company. They're outsourced somewhere in the world.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

And of course, we all have experienced that in some capacity, especially if you've ever had a computer problem or anything. Right. You're talking to somewhere, somebody somewhere in the world and you're trying to make they're trying to help you make sense of a problem.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

My point is, I don't know. I think it's probably very situational whether these companies are mistreating the people who work from them or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of that mistreatment doesn't come to light or get the attention or reaction it deserves because it is connected to sex work, and that is a bigger problem than just this.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Ah, I see. So in this article, which I'll post online, they talked to a person named Andre, who's a chatter in Manila. He works for a Barcelona-based OnlyFans agency called Casey Incorporation. He finds the job fulfilling. He doesn't think his family would approve that he does this. Uh, he used to work as a um customer service person for T-Mobile.

SPEAKER_04 13:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Okay, so that's what you were saying. Is like so that for him, this is a lateral move in many ways. Now he works a daily four-hour shift messaging a model's subscribers. When he's when his shift is over, he signs out of the account, and another chatter from somewhere else in the world logs on and picks up the conversations where he left off. And he says, uh, as he's been doing this job, he's become intimately familiar with the quirks and desires of subscribers. He's learned that, like I suggested before, that a lot of people are really aren't calling for sexual gratification as much as they are just having some kind of connection, someone to talk to. But it's all through text. So they don't know they're talking to Andre in Manila. Right. They think they're talking to Greta in Chicago. Right. Okay, for example. He says that most of the big spenders he talks to seem pretty normal, but they seem depressed and isolated. And he says, uh, probably a minority are suffering from some sort of mental health issues. What was interesting is Andre says that he sees a connection. He sees many of the people who are doing the chatter job are poor and desperate. And he sees people who subscribe to these sites as a way of having a human connection as also poor and desperate. Poor and desperate, at least in terms of spirit, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Um and his philosophy is at the end of the day, if you gotta eat, you gotta do what you gotta do. They don't make a lot of money doing that compared to the profits that are generated for the people that run these agencies. Uh some models can make a lot of money doing this. Um it's not like they're not making anything or they're being cheated, but they're making less than they would if they did it all on their own.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Aaron Ross Powell Right. Well, I think that kind of thing, I think that kind of scheme, if you run it that way where the percentage that you're taking is so much higher than the people who are doing work, the percentage that you're taking for management, I think that's unethical in any industry. And I think it happens in every industry.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Now sometimes the subscribers start to think that maybe they're not talking to the model and they say, Hey, I need you, I need to know if you're really that person. And so what the management company will do is one, they they get notified of that, and then they have the model create content just for that person and just drop that into their feed. And then they're like, Okay, okay. Like it's you, it's I'm really talking to you. And then they just go back to chatters. So most of the time when you're having these intimate conversations, whether they're for connection or for sexual gratification, you're not talking to the model at all.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

I can see why that sounds troubling, but I would counter with even if you are actually talking to the model, that person is doing their job and creating a persona to talk to you. You you're not talking to them really, I think a lot of the time anyway, right? You're talking to the the persona that is doing this this work and wants to talk you through this.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Well, yes, and I think, but I think they're I think it's fair to assume that a number of subscribers, people who are paying to have this relationship, believe they have a relationship with this person.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Even though they realize this person is out there and they must have other clients, of course. Right. They're not s the only person, but it would, I could see a situation where someone would feel like I have a special connection with this person. Like we have some really good conversations and we just don't talk about sex either. We talk about our day, our problems. Some of these chatters, um, you know, because they're they're churning, right? Because their goal is to keep the subscribers interested, right? Keep them hooked in and keep them spending money for more content. That's what it's all about. So they will reach out to subscribers to say, What's going on, babe? And then the person might say, Well, I'm just having my lunch, and they'll write back, according to this article, enjoy your lunch. I'm just sitting here naked to try to get them to like woe and engage and yeah, yeah. Yeah, engage and spend some kind of money. Um, and you know, some models get as many, you know, thousands of these subscribers and they're going all day long. Right. So you have to have this army of chatters around the world willing to have all these conversations going that the model is not having, actually.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

You know, some some people would argue, and I think you were making a similar argument earlier, um, is that do you really expect that you're having these conversations with this person? Do you really in this day and age expect that? And I think some people do. Yeah, I think they think they are.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

And I can see that side of it. I can, and I can see how that would be heartbreaking to find out that you're not. I think I'm approaching it from a perspective of being just kind of cynical about I don't usually believe that pe people that I meet online, I I my first assumption is never that I'm getting a hundred percent of the truth about them because the internet exists to give you the opportunity to shroud yourselves in certain ways, right? I mean, I'm of a generation that learned a lot of stay safe on the internet stuff in school because it was, you know, burgeoning then and it was this whole new thing, and how do you internet safety, et cetera? And so I grew up being told that person in a chat room is not the person that you think they are. So I think that's just deeply ingrained in me. But I can see how if that wasn't the perspective that you had, that that could be a kind of heartbreaking realization.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Well, I'm sure at some point the world will become more sophisticated about this and will assume that they're not talking to the model and will require that sort of access and they'll be asked to pay more.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

But at this point, there you could one could argue that there's a deception going on. Uh true. And is that okay? Is it okay? Like if this were any other service, would we be pissed off about it?

SPEAKER_03 20:08

I I don't know that we would be because, like I said, it happens in other services. Let me give you an example.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Let me give you an example though. Let's say it's online therapy with a licensed therapist.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Okay, okay. And that's a good example.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

And that's interesting. And the therapist, there's a real therapist, but they don't spend any time with you when you text like, Tay, I'm really having a bad day, you're talking to somebody in Manila who's not even a trained therapist. Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

They're not even in, they're not even their field, they're just parroting phrases and things that they've been told to say.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Is that a fraud? That is definitely a fraud. So, I well, I think some of it is that you think that you're talking to a licensed medical professional. I do think that that's not an apples and oranges comparison. But I see what you're getting at, and I do I do think that you have a point.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

I'm paying for something that I'm not getting.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I think I'm getting this special connection with a really a person I find stimulating and attractive for whatever reason, and I have, and it's an intimate connection because I've seen their body parts and I've paid them money. Right. So this is a real relationship.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

And it isn't.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

It's fake.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Oh, I can see, I can see that.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

I was trying to think like what job would I like to have in this hierarchy. So there's the management company, there's the model, there are the chatters, and there are the and then the other player, the other actors in this play are the subscribers. Like I don't want to be a subscriber. Um, I doesn't that's not the kind of thing I want to do. It doesn't feel like a good space for me. I might be a good chatter though.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

There you go. Yeah, I mean improv.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah. And I think I could um I think I think I could make somebody fall in love with some me as a model.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

I I believe it. I think there's some interesting arguments to be made too about the fact That only fans in particular, to my understanding at least, and I might be incorrect about this, but my understanding is that it is meant to be a um platform where anyone could go make an account and do this, right? It doesn't need to be somebody who has um, you know, trained in sex work. Right. Um and so to in that sense, there's an argument to be made that the model the the level of of chatting that the model was providing on their own might be equal to or even better with a chatter who has been training to do this on the job, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah, Andre's good at it. Andre in Manila.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, that's a whole other there's just so many, so many facets to this. And I mean, I I do to return to the idea of like not expecting the person that you're talking to online to be the person that they say they are, I should I should say that my best friend is someone that I met in like nerd circles online and they didn't end up being who they said they were. And it's like a really fulfilling relationship.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

And I can imagine how And their name is Andre and they live in Manila.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Exactly, my good buddy Andre. And I can imagine, you know, it's a very different situation, but I can imagine that if we had had these deep conversations and then they were like, no, actually, that was I I have a ring of my cousins that I just sit on my online platform to to talk to my friends online about Star Wars. Uh and then yeah, that would have been heartbreaking to find out that it wasn't it wasn't this person that I thought it was. So I can definitely see that.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

But I like your I like your perspective as a younger person. You're like, hey, I grew up in a world where we know that we know what catfishing is, we know what's going on out there, we know how the internet works, and we're we're much less trusting.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Right. I can see from your perspective where you're saying, oh, they're not potentially not feeling like they're getting what they paid for, but from my perspective, if it was me, I'd feel like I was, I think, because I'm getting this chat that I expected to get.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah, you get you get what you you you're getting what you paid for. But again, using the therapist analogy, which I appreciate your point, is it's not apples and apples, but it but using that analogy because it works in my favor, it's it's like the person you're chatting with who's not a therapist, may you may get a great, you may get just the same benefit. But the you're you're not getting what you paid for. It's like going for a massage, and the person that gives you a great massage is not a masseuse. Right. They're just somebody named Otto who was rando outside of the building. Yeah, really good.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

My name's Otto, and uh my talent is I'm good with my hands. It's what I'm told.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

So um I did have a massage by somebody named Otto.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Were they good with their hands?

SPEAKER_01 24:52

They almost killed me. I was so sore.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

They were not good with their hands. Otto.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Well, depending on what you want with their hands. Oh, okay. If they if you want someone to hurt you, they would be. Yeah, I just sore socially.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

I don't know if you're listening.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Otto, maybe uh there's construction. Yeah, there's a lot of things for you, Otto, out there. Uh this one person who is uh managing his own little uh enterprise that does this work, um, claimed that one of his most uh uh successful models makes herself 40,000 per month. Wow, he estimated across multiple subscription platforms. So, you know, you can see if you're the model where you'd be like, okay, I don't have to do any of this. Yeah, I just got to create the content and then you take care of the rest. Take care of it, and you keep all these subscribers happy and you listen to all their little things and tell them all the sexy things they want to hear, or just listen to their problems. And I don't do anything and I just, you know, do my own thing.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

You know, well, you do the part of the work that you like potentially and not and not have to deal with the parts of the work that you don't like.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

So I like that. I think the part that kind of so the so part one that kind of got me to stop and realize, oh, I'm pretty naive, is the part where you think you're having these chats with the model and you're not. And then the second part of that was if you get wise to the fact that maybe you're not talking to the actual model, then they get the model to help uh deceive you by using the model.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Because they want to keep your your subscription.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah, so like the model will record something with your handle in it, and so that's so it seems to me like what would make me feel better about this whole thing is um if I were a model. No. Um what would make me feel better is if they disclosed something in the fine print that said not all conversations you have will be with the actual model. But don't you think there should be a disclosure since you're paying, it's not just a yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

I mean, I think if you want fine print contracts and things, then will we need legal protections for sex workers? Like I think that's the same conversation.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Agreed. I I I'm all for that.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

I uh I just I just it kind of I think if we're gonna I guess I think if we're gonna treat it like the Wild West, it gets to be the Wild West.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

I don't know. I don't know if that's good or bad.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

I don't know. I mean, I don't and it's like you know, there's the whole I mean, there seems like there's exploitation all over the place.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Yeah, oh there definitely is.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

So there's just layers and layers of it. And I just it's like when I read about this, I just felt like, wow, I don't feel like I know the world.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

I feel like everyone in this story is being taken advantage of in some way or another. And I feel like I'm being taken advantage of reading about it.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

How so?

SPEAKER_03 27:48

No, just like that, just that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Oh yeah, no, it just I guess I just felt the real feeling I had was um like coming to a foreign country that just operates completely differently different, yeah, and reading about things, and it's like, wow, I never even thought about it. So, like to me, the fact that this whole infrastructure exists and there's people doing this, and there's Andre in Manila working his butt off for the good hands shift and auto with the good hands, and the models making money, and the the guy in Miami on his pool deck doing running this all from his phone. Like he's not going into the office, he's doing it all from his phone and recruiting people all over the world to do these chats. I don't know if it's okay. I don't know if I'm okay with it. Yeah, that's a yeah, that's a good way to like maybe if they're paying people more to do it. At the end of this article, they talk to a couple that love so they are performing couple, so they're in a real relationship and they create couples content for uh this management company. Okay. And they love it. They love, love, love it because they like creating the content and they like turning it over to the management company, and as a result, they make all this passive online income. So they create the content, that part's active, but then everything else, the marketing and the interactive, yeah, it's all taken care of. And they can live in a spacious, high-rise apartment with a commanding view of the Miami skyline.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

What a sentence.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

And they feel that their friends accept it and admire them. They feel like this latest iteration of what sex work is is resulting in a destigmatization of the work itself.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

That would be a great benefit from it. And if that is happening.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

People see them living in this beautiful home, a beautiful apartment over Miami, and having all this time. And there's like, yeah, you right on, good for you. Like it's they can be proud of what they're doing and not feel like, oh, I have to keep this a secret, tell people I sell refrigerators, you know. Yeah. Or whatever. And uh, and so I'm thinking about that world too, like where your friends are like, yeah, that's great. And and you're really getting it done, and good for you, and you can have this uh extra money, and you can have the things you want and do the things you want. And my old brain is like trying to just like really quick decide how I feel about all because something feels off.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

And how much of that is genuine and how much of it is societal programming inside our heads, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

How much of it is programming, how much of it's the programming.

SPEAKER_03 30:43

I don't know. It's called I mean, I think it's all really complicated.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

But does any of it sound off to you, or do you like like this is just the internet, man? This is just the world, man.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

I mean, from my like immediate personal visceral reaction, yeah, I'm a cynic about the internet, that's my reaction to it. But when I take the time to think about it, I can see more perspectives than that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

I know myself, if I were a chatter, which is where I see myself fitting into the hierarchy, yeah. I'd be really good, I'd be really competitive, and I'd want to be better than all the other chatters. There you go. And I'd want to get more, like be responsible for the other. Most of the most subscribers, yeah. Driving more revenue, keeping more subscribers, getting new subscribers. And there would be another part of me that would want to get the person so hooked into me that if they ever talk to the actual model, they would feel like they were being cheated.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

Oh, okay. That's that's what I would be. That's some that's some a peek into Ross's psyche. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

I'd become a master chatter.

SPEAKER_03 31:45

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

That's that would be my motivation.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

I've ruined you for all your chatters. That's what I want to be.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

That's the goal.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I want to be the master chatter.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

That would be the way I put. I think I'd be really good at it.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Like, wow, there's so much I don't really know.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

I feel that way after this conversation in a positive way, right? In that sense of like, wow, the world is complex. I feel like every level of this has so many, I don't know, conversations to be had, ethically, ethically, more morally, legally, like every every level of it, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:22

The gestalt of the thing for me was just very unsettling because it's like, wow. And it's like part of it was good because it's it's like if you strip away like the value parts of it and you know, and how certain people may or may not be being exploited or deceived in order to make this work, it's like what an incredible thing that you can do now. Yeah, what an industry that or you can just create this network of and it's all based on the idea that people want to interact and people are lonely.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

And there's that's been monetized for ever since there was money. Like they've, you know. Absolutely. What about the Lonely Hearts Club? Absolutely. What about the the uh the taxi dancers?

SPEAKER_03 33:07

I don't know about taxi dancers.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

I'd find out a topic that you don't know anything about.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

Ross, what is a taxi dancer?

SPEAKER_01 33:14

It's taken years.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

Ross, what is it?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Oh my gosh. I can't I don't know the exact textbook definition, but essentially people, namely men who were lonely, would go to a place where there was usually live music, a band. Okay. There would be women who work there, and they you could pay for a dance. And it would not be a sex thing. You would just go and dance with them. So they would be there.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Where does the taxi come in?

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Well, there's like it's like taking a ride.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

It's like paying somebody to drive.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

I was imagining that there was a literal taxi involved.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

That would have made it better. People have always monetized the loneliness business.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

So, in a in a sense, that's all this is. Right. People are lonely, they want connection, and they'll pay for it.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

So if you step way back and just look at it through the capitalistic lens, you say, what are people, what does the consumer want? They want a connection. What are they getting? A connection.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Case closed. I'm not worrying about the small parts.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

I don't like that you're putting me on the side of the capitalists in this situation, though.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying if you if you Oh no, I don't want to be No, I'm not saying you are necessarily one way to look at it. You can step away from and say there's, you know, nothing to see here, folks. Right, right. It's they're wanting this, they're getting this, and they want to see a nude picture, they see a naked picture. You know, that's what they're paying for, that's what they get. How that happens, you know, that's all in the details.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

And I do think I do think that more transparency is good. And I think that, like I said earlier, that needs to be part of other conversations around the legality of sex work and more transparent to protect sex workers.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Aaron Powell If I'm chatting with a model and the model is Andre Manila, I'd prefer to know that. That's the right thing. That doesn't mean I don't strike up a cool relationship with Andre. Yeah. Because maybe this dude's got some great ideas for me. And maybe he knows just what to say to me to make me feel relaxed and wanted and warm. And apparently he does. He's doing great at it. So what's wrong with that?

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Andre's chat, Otto's hands, the perfect man.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Well, thank you, Madeline, for joining me for this episode. It was an interesting discussion.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

It was. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

And uh your opinions are very valuable to me as I try to make sense of a complicated world. And thank everyone for joining us. Uh, please help us share the show. Post your favorite episode somewhere where people can find it. Don't be shy about it. We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

We do.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

We appreciate you following us on Instagram. You can reach out to us that way. You can send us emails. We are very engaging, and we will be the ones actually talking to you.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

I I won't, but some other people who actually work on the show.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

I will actually talk to you. We are very small, so Andre is not working for us. We look forward to getting large enough. We're on we need Andre and Manila. Yeah, no, you'll actually be dealing with the real people. And the pictures we post on Instagram are really of us.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Yeah, that is true.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

That's true. And there's nothing the rest of it was too. There's nothing we can do about it. Uh, you can support us on Patreon if you want to do that. That's welcome. And if you can find a place to rate us, give us a high rating and a wonderful review. We will appreciate you forever for doing that, and that helps people find us. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are a taxi dancer working in a taxi dance hall, or just someone experiencing the magic of Otto's good hand, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Bye bye.