Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
WE'VE DONE THE MATH AND WE THINK YOU ARE GOING TO BE OK
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Tracey the therapist and co-host Madeline join Ross to discuss whether doing "depressing math" can actually increase one's joy. Tangents include: mathletes; quiz bowl; Monte Hall problem; Nuns; homework dilemmas. Ross discusses his "touches" theory and Tracey talks about a bloody experience.
Notes:
- https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/opinion/covid-pandemic-depressing-math.html?searchResultPosition=1
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
Like it was as bad as it gets. Your son almost killed you. Oh, he did not.
SPEAKER_00He owes you.
SPEAKER_03He does not. I mean You can tell us, it's just us.
SPEAKER_04The whole medical profession owes you.
SPEAKER_03If he's listening out there, again, it had nothing to do with human.
SPEAKER_00He's not in the demographic and listens to this show. Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today's guest is terrific tantalizing and always topical Tracy. Hello, Tracy. Hello, I love the alliteration. Thank you. Yes, I did that for you. And we are lucky to have as our guest host today a human, so brainy that she can humble a mensa wannabe at 30 paces, Madeline. Hey there, Madeline.
SPEAKER_05Hello, I'm so flattered.
SPEAKER_00And welcome to the show, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Our little community is growing, and we need you to help us wherever you are. If you're in London, hello London. But put down the T or put down the crumpet. You just want a free hand and share the show with your free hand. If you're in Australia, hey Melbourne, we see you. If you're holding a kangaroo in one hand and a wallaby in the other, put down the wallaby, mate, and send somebody the link to this show. We appreciate your help. We'll talk more about that at the end. Okay, let's get started.
SPEAKER_02Let's do it.
SPEAKER_00So we know that we humans are always being told to maximize our joy, stop and smell the flowers, follow the fun, etc., etc. And we know that all of that advice is easier said than done, especially during COVID times, which is where we are right now. So recently I encountered an approach called depressing math.
SPEAKER_01Ooh, go on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, by this cat named Tim Urban. And he wrote a thought piece on how to, in effect, get some of the time back that we lost during COVID and continue to lose. Interesting. Ever hear of depressing math? No, but I am intrigued.
SPEAKER_05No, but I feel very uniquely qualified to speak on this subject because I have clinical depression and I was a mathly for seven years, and those two facts might be connected.
SPEAKER_00That's why you're here.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_00That is why you're here. By the way, for our listening friends who have no idea what a mathlet is, what's a mathlet?
SPEAKER_05Oh God. A nerd. A mathlet. Mathletes is a club, is a group that you go to after school, or sometimes on your lunch break while your other friends are having fun. Uh and you do all sorts of math problems. But the cool part is that you get to go to competitions and compete against other schools' mathletes. You know, if your school has a quiz bowl or something like that, it's like that. But a quiz bowl.
SPEAKER_00A quiz bowl. Interesting. You're sort of on the art side of math.
SPEAKER_05Yes, I like weird math.
SPEAKER_00You wouldn't ever like try to build a bridge. No. Because it would fall into the river.
SPEAKER_05And talk about how the Monty Hall problem works for 15 minutes.
SPEAKER_00You are the first person ever, ever in my life to say the Monty Hall problem. I thought I was the only one in the world. The Monty Hall problem is delightful.
SPEAKER_03My oldest child did a science fair experiment on the Monty Hall problem.
SPEAKER_05Oh my god, the Monty Hall. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00Do you know that you probably do know this, but the person, there was a female, I don't know if she was a mathematician or a scientist, but she published, and it was called something else then because it was pre-Monty Hall, I believe. But she published it. It was published in some silly journal like the Reader's Digest or something.
SPEAKER_05And it's almost like it was tough for women to get published in more serious scientific journals at that time.
SPEAKER_00So she explains, she explains it. Right. There were at the end of the show, if you were the selected contestants, you could choose a door. Right. Three doors. And behind one door, there was usually a cool prize.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Behind one door, there was usually an okay prize. And behind one door, there was usually a dud.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00And it would be like a horse or a burrow or do you get to keep the horse? Yeah, see, that's the question. Because a lot of people would want a nice horse. Right. For the stakes. Yeah. No, so um, so the Monty Hall problem is let's say, Madeline, you choose door number one.
SPEAKER_05Let's see what's behind door number one. Right. He opens two and he says, You, it's a good thing you didn't pick door number two. That was the dud. So you can either stay with door number one or you can change to door number two.
SPEAKER_00So you'll get like maybe a chair or a car or something.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_00And the Monty Hall problem poses this question should you switch?
SPEAKER_05Mathematically, based on your likelihood of finding the prize, should you switch.
SPEAKER_00Right. And it's counterintuitive because the answer is, and you can look this up and read about it, that you should always switch.
SPEAKER_05It is always better odds to switch. Which doesn't feel right, but is true.
SPEAKER_00Most people will say it's 50-50.
SPEAKER_05Right. And a bunch of predominantly male mathematicians after so she had published that thing, and then it w and then she like I think wrote into a newspaper with like, hey, I did this study that lines up with the Monty Hall doors, and it works like this. A bunch of predominantly male mathematicians went, This is ridiculous. This is so wrong. Her uterus is getting in the way of her math brain, basically. Exactly. Uh, and then did some more work on it and went, Oh no, actually, she's right, she's completely right.
SPEAKER_00It was so beautiful, it's so fun. And it you can win a bet every time. Uh-huh. So I advise everyone, you can look it up on Wikipedia, it's simply explained. It's it's actually got some complex math in it, but you don't have to know it.
SPEAKER_05No. Just to understand.
SPEAKER_00It's true, and you will win a beer every time at the bar.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_05So that's my kind of math.
SPEAKER_00I cannot believe it. I am so I get so excited about the Monte Hall. Do you are you excited about the Monte Hall problem?
SPEAKER_03I I am. Yeah. I'm thrilled about it.
SPEAKER_00Um, I was not great in school. You know that. I've say that many times, mostly by choice. I didn't try. I was just didn't care. Um, it's a sad story. Um, I went to a Catholic school.
SPEAKER_03Well, that explains it. Just I mean, my children both have gone fully Catholic school and had a great experience.
SPEAKER_05Well, there it depends on the schools.
SPEAKER_03But it was. Current Catholic schools in Portland, Oregon.
SPEAKER_00Current Catholic schools, not that we're completely different. You don't even have to be Catholic anymore. No, we're not. The nuns don't eat I mean, are there nuns anymore? There were nuns.
SPEAKER_03Are there nuns to your knuckles with rulers in there? There were nuns. Those Irish nun nuns.
SPEAKER_00The Irish nuns were rough and tumble because they came out of hard scrabble situations and they thought we were all just a bunch of spoiled brats. Kids these days. Because we had like a shirt and shoes.
SPEAKER_05So like what you did these days, their shirts and their shoes.
SPEAKER_00So Sister Bridget was mean. I believe that. She was the meanest of all the nuns in my school I went to.
SPEAKER_03Oh, Bridget.
SPEAKER_00And do you remember sometimes in math? Well, this is how it was for me. I don't know if it was for you, but this is in grade school. There were some homework assignments where they'd say you don't have to turn it in, just do the work and we'll discuss it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it's not a turn-in. Every once in a while they'd be like that. Most of the time you had to turn it in.
SPEAKER_03Which I never did. Fair. Wow.
SPEAKER_00You never turned it in?
SPEAKER_03No. I didn't do it.
SPEAKER_05How could you turn it in if you didn't do it? Exactly. I'm with you here. Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_00If you didn't do it.
SPEAKER_05Hold on a minute. You found the loophole.
SPEAKER_00That's her own version of the Monty Hall problem.
unknownThere we go.
SPEAKER_00What is the probability that Tracy did her math homework? It's always zero.
SPEAKER_05It's always zero. The limit does not exist.
SPEAKER_00Sister Bridget was, I remember like she she would always intimidate people. So she'd walk into the classroom, uh, and she would point at somebody just all of a sudden, without any kind of warm-up, so point to some poor kid and say something like, six eights! Five sevens. And we didn't know what she was talking about. What she meant she's discussing multiplication. Yes, but we didn't know that. We were used to five times seven equals thirty-five. So she five sevens.
SPEAKER_05I'm going six eighths and going, do you want, do you want me to reduce that as a fraction? What do you think?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I just got internally very anxious. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00I she it was scary. And the poor kids would be like, all of us would have no, even the smart kids would be like, what? What do you want from us? Yeah, and that's how I always felt personally with the nuns. I was like, I don't know how to make you happy. You know what it was like? I was like one of those those disobedient dogs who really are trying to please, but they just don't get it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They don't get like, I'm not supposed to be on the couch, but why it's so comfy. Right. I and then I can't. You don't want me on the couch with you? You sit on and why I can't. How does this make sense in your mind?
SPEAKER_03That is so wrong and terrible and shaming. And go on with your story.
SPEAKER_00So one day, Sister Bridget um assigns math homework. And I swear to God to this day, that it was take it home, do it, but you don't have to turn it in. Right. So I did do it, unlike Tracy. And I would not have. She would not have. And actually, you know what? You would have fared better in this little scenario. And you'll see why in a minute. So I figure, okay, so I can it all be messy and it doesn't matter. I don't have to like make it. Like I did it, whatever. And also, I'm a very messy person. So when I do like math, it looks like somebody is making a map of China in the dark.
SPEAKER_03Well, I would do that and then always come up with the wrong answer at the end. Therefore, don't do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, that's the better way. It's cleaner. It's so much cleaner. Why try? I get the class, Sister Bridget's up there yelling at kids, and then she goes, turn in your homework. And I'm like, wait a dick. But now I'm faced with this dilemma.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Do I hand it in and get my ass kicked because it's messy? Or do I not hand it in like Tracy and get my ass kicked because I didn't do it? Right. What's the better strategy? And as always, I guessed wrong. Oh no. I figure, here's my little brain logic at the time. I say, well, if I hand it in at least I tried, she can see that I did it.
SPEAKER_05And you know what? In any other class, that would have been correct.
SPEAKER_00But not Sister Bridget's class. So the stuff comes in. Never be good enough with Sister Bridget. She's looking through it and she gets mine, she goes, What is this? What is this? Oh no, and she says, What do you mean by giving this messy homework in?
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, you know, I thought it was uh do-dah, do-da-da, you didn't have to turn it in.
SPEAKER_00You know, I'm doing my excuse. She's not having any of it. And she was in a bad mood that day. How do I know that? Because instead of like smacking me with a ruler or making me sit outside or giving me a little choke or whatever. Oh my god. She says, You are going with me to the principal's office right now. No, no. So I'm like, wow, that's talk about the punishment not fitting the crime. So she yanks me down to the principal's office. How old are you in this? Um probably 11-ish. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So miscreant.
SPEAKER_00She explains the Sister Bridget angrily explains to the principal what happened and how horrible this is. I could see the principal's kind of like, yeah, okay. But she's going along with it. And Sister Bridget says, We're going to call your mother. What? We're calling your mother on the phone.
SPEAKER_03How did you feel about that?
SPEAKER_00I well, I was ambivalent because on the one hand, uh, I didn't want them to do that. Right. Because my parents did not like that I was always getting in trouble. Well, sure. They did not like it. But on the other hand, I was like, well, this ought to be interesting. Right.
SPEAKER_01Because this one seems so they call my mother.
SPEAKER_00Now, as you may remember from other shows or whatever, I was uh one of several children.
SPEAKER_058,000 children.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that we had a lot of kids in my family, and my mother was extremely busy at home.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I can't imagine why with 8,000 children.
SPEAKER_00She was constantly, she had like baby on one arm, a hot plate in another arm.
SPEAKER_05She was got a third arm where she's got somebody by the ear.
SPEAKER_00Balancing the checkbook. She was juggling. I mean, she just was constant and she was a little there'd be times when she'd be wound up a little bit, a little tight.
SPEAKER_05I can't labor. So I would be too.
SPEAKER_00I'm sitting there, they make me call. So the nuns, imagine nuns sitting on you like vultures. They're so close to me. I'm dialing. When in and in it, you know, in the old days with the dial phone.
SPEAKER_03It's a wonder you didn't love school.
SPEAKER_00So my mom answers, shh, and I say, Hi, mom, it's Ross. But in a little kid voice. Right.
SPEAKER_05Hi, mom, it's Ross.
SPEAKER_00And my mother, I can just imagine in that moment. She's probably like stirring a stew with a baby. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so she hears my voice, and so she says, What? Really loud. Because not because she's mad, but because she's worried that there's like I'm in the hospital. Right.
SPEAKER_03Because like, why there must be an emergency.
SPEAKER_00For a kid to call me in the mid-morning. You were at school.
SPEAKER_03I do not have to worry about you. You are not on my list of things right now.
SPEAKER_00So the nuns can hear all of it. They're like, it's not like it's on speakerphone, but they're that close to me that it's and my mother's very loud. So then I say, Well, um, I'm calling because and I'm they're watching me. Like I it's like it's like I'm recording one of those hostage tapes, you know, like you're in North Korea. Yeah, my God. Um, so um I say, I turned in some messy homework, and my mother goes, What? Again, like, what are you eating?
SPEAKER_05Why are you talking about it? Your appendix is intact.
SPEAKER_00Why are you calling? So they hear that. I can see the expressions on their face.
SPEAKER_05They're like, kind of like we've miscalculated.
SPEAKER_00It was just like, wait a minute, we knew we wanted her to be mad, but she doesn't sound mad the right way.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, she's mad at him. Hold on.
SPEAKER_00So so then, so then the sister Bridget is tell tell her not just messy, sloppy, messy, despicable work. So I'm like re like parroting it back.
SPEAKER_04Messy, despicable work.
SPEAKER_00Yes, just like that. And that was the tone of my voice. And I'm just like saying whatever, like I'm I don't know, whatever you want me to say.
SPEAKER_02I just want to get out of this.
SPEAKER_00And my mother says, there's like a little beat, and then she puts it in a low voice. She goes, put them on.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I like I like your mother in this moment.
SPEAKER_00I was surprised. They were more surprised. So I hand the phone slowly, like, but she wants to talk to you. And now Sister Bridget is looking now, she doesn't look mad anymore. Now she looks like puzzled and a little concerned.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00She's like, grabs the phone, she puts it to her ear. Hello. And my mother says something. I'm paraphrasing, I heard it at the time, but this is from a long ago. But she says something like, Look, I got a bunch of kids here. I don't want you to call me unless it's an emergency. Are you a teacher? Oh. And I hear sisters bridge going. Well, um, yes.
SPEAKER_01Well, then you need to teach my child click.
SPEAKER_00Whoa! And then they the crowd goes by. And then they look at me and they're like, go back to your class. Yes. I thought it was great.
SPEAKER_03Your mom, your mom had a hero moment in that. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Well, she wasn't happy with me. It was just like a moment where I came home and we're slapping high fives or doing the Monty Hall problem or anything. She was like, you know, God, we could you just do something right? But the nuns did not win that day.
SPEAKER_05No, and that's what's really important.
SPEAKER_00They did not win that day.
SPEAKER_05In that moment, the nuns did not win. No.
SPEAKER_00This is his idea. He calls it depressing math. And he says, it's a good thing. The basic idea is however long we live, 70 years, 80 years, 90 years, a million years, however long we live, it's only a few thousand weeks. It's not this enormous amount of time. The idea is if you do depressing math, you'll guide yourself to maximizing your joy. That sounds counterintuitive, just like the Monty Hall problem. Allow me to illustrate how this works. So let's say, on average, I have a best friend.
SPEAKER_05Let's say on average that Ross has a best friend. In the average situation, if we average all possible universes, chances are good that the Ross in this universe, first of all, exists and second of all has a best friend.
SPEAKER_00What I meant to say is let's say I have a best friend. Okay. That even that may even be less plausible. And so I have a best friend, and on average, I see this best friend five days a year because they don't live here. So I see them every year for five days.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So let's say I live 20 more years. Madeline.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00How many more days do I have with my best and closest friend?
SPEAKER_03I mean a hundred if we're thank you for not asking me that question.
SPEAKER_00I know I know who the math lead is.
SPEAKER_03Not me. It's not me.
SPEAKER_00So a hundred days.
SPEAKER_05I mean, well, if we're factoring in weeb beers.
SPEAKER_00So yes.
SPEAKER_05Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
SPEAKER_00Power down, Madeline. So that's just a little over 1% of my remaining days. So 99% of my time that I have left, I'm not going to be with my best and closest friend.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_00That is depressing to us. So so what he says is if we we can change that by deciding, well, I don't like, I don't want to have a hundred more days. I want to have two hundred. So we're going to figure out a way to double our time that we see each other every year. Or I'm going to move to this person's town. Right. So we can be neighbors. Right. He, but. So he's basically saying that we can maximize the amount of time we have and spend more time doing the things that we love if we are aware of the depressing math. And then we change our behavior so that we increase the number of opportunities to do the cool things. So, Tracy, let's do some long division. No.
SPEAKER_03I do love that. No, no, that's not true.
SPEAKER_05I love that. She lied lyingly.
SPEAKER_00This is one time where I wish this was on video. With a great face. It was a very good thing. A very serious face.
SPEAKER_03Because it's honest.
SPEAKER_00So Tracy, so Tracy, tell me one of your favorite places to visit. It could be a museum, a country, a city, a baseball stadium, anything that you love doing.
SPEAKER_03The beach, not on the west coast. The beach not on the west coast. A tropical southeast of the United States or Hawaii or somewhere warm where the water's also warm. This is probably more detailed than you need. The beach.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so a beach not on the west coast. And so, like Hawaii, for example. Sure. Have you ever been? Yes. How many times have you been in your whole life?
SPEAKER_03Depressing math, right? Let's say four.
SPEAKER_00Four times. So let's say our friend Tracy here lives another 50 years. Let's hope. That means if we just go with the average, you're only gonna go around another three or four times, right? So that's depressing math. It's like, wow, only more four more times? It is unless I change that. You change it.
SPEAKER_03So what could you do? I could make a plan to go more often. Right on. I could move there. It's the idea of being more present and more mindful in the life you're living. Right. So that you're making the most of the time that you have and realizing that you have within your sphere of influence the opportunity to increase the positive experiences you have in your day-to-day life.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a good summary of what he's saying. He's he's basically saying that we tend to think we're gonna be around for 50 more years.
SPEAKER_05It might only times.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it might only be 10 more years. We don't know when the bus is coming to run us over. So it's like you need to get on these changes if you really want to do that. Now, Madeline, I know you like your parents.
SPEAKER_05I do. They're great.
SPEAKER_00And uh we've talked about that before in the show. How weird and unusual that is.
SPEAKER_05I know I'm in a very select, uh select group there, people who genuinely like and enjoy the company of their parents.
SPEAKER_00But most of the guests that get selected for this show have had horrible parents. Um so um so you are uh a bit of an anomaly. A bit of a freak, yes. But we like that.
SPEAKER_05Uh in a good way. Yeah. So Freak affectionate.
SPEAKER_00Your parents don't live far away, do they? They live in another state.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, five, six hour drive, but we we s we video call with some frequency too.
SPEAKER_00But let's talk about actual face-to-face visits. How often do you see them?
SPEAKER_05Realistically.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Realistically. When you look back over the years.
SPEAKER_05Four weeks out of the year.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's a lot of time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Three three, four weeks out of the year.
SPEAKER_00So let's say they go on another thirty years. I don't know.
SPEAKER_05They better hopefully longer. If they don't, I will hunt them down and bring them back.
SPEAKER_00So that's 120 weeks.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So I mean, I you're I you know, I just sound like a good number to you? There's no there is no upper limit of a good number of of time to get out of it, right? For something like that, I I think.
SPEAKER_00So I it sounds like a lot, 120 weeks.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but also But at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and and exactly the same conversation, right? I have the opportunity to use that to drive me to to visit them more, to get them to visit me more, to do more video calls and stuff too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So that's that's the whole thesis that this guy was putting forward, this guy, Jim Urban. And I'll put the article in the show notes. Do you like this kind of thing? You said it was a sort of an exciting, positive way to kind of reframe your I do, and and I relationships like I like the idea.
SPEAKER_03I like the idea of being more mindful, being more thoughtful, of thinking about the time that we have here and how we want to spend it and maximizing that. Yes. Um, because we only get so much time. I had a near-death experience about coming on 20 years ago. What? Yeah. Wow. What happened? When my son was born, he was healthy and things were fine, but things went really awry for me. I lost all my blood and then some, like it was bad. I had emergency surgery. Like it was it was as bad as all your blood. And then some, yeah. They were transfusing me, but I was losing it faster than they could transfuse me. Um and I had emergency surgery, I was an ICU. Like it was it was touch and go. Like it was as bad as it gets.
SPEAKER_00Your son almost killed you.
SPEAKER_03Oh, he did not.
SPEAKER_00He owes you.
SPEAKER_03He does not.
SPEAKER_04I mean You can tell us, it's just us. He won't listen.
SPEAKER_03If he's listening out there, again, it had nothing to do with you.
SPEAKER_00He's not in the demographic and listens to the show. He'll never hear this. But anyway, so you almost died.
SPEAKER_03Child in childbirth. And um, like like really as close as it gets. And it was really hard. And I remember at the time, um yeah, I'm the poster child for no home birth. I know. I remember in that moment wanting to just capture every thinking like every day is a gift I almost didn't get. I better make the most of it. Right. And I know that's lots of people that's not an unusual experience, right? But I think that's kind of this. And then I go back to that sometimes when I get frustrated in my life and I think, oh, what's it? And I'm like, oh, I have the power to change this. Yes, I can do this differently. I can capture what I want out of life more, I can spend more time with the people I care about, I can make sure that the career I'm choosing, I'm doing it the way I want to. Like in the summer, these summer days are like my favorite days in the world. And so in the summer, my um clients generally decrease a little bit. And so I just work less in the summer because I want more of those days. So I've just kind of worked my life in ways, not everything, but in ways to where I can do that. And I think that that near-death experience was part of me really remembering that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's an incredible story. But we would hope that we could make some changes without an NDE. Yes, because uh that sounds scary to me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So the divine M.
SPEAKER_05Yes, I will answer to that.
SPEAKER_00Do you like do you like this uh depressing math theory?
SPEAKER_05Is it I like everything that Tracy just said about it, like a lot, and that does sit for me definitely. But there's the element that is I'm I'm a little bit of a skeptic sometimes when people throw out theories and things, right? There's always a part of me that's going like, well, what about the flip side? And there is, I think, the the one thing that that sticks with me is there's something about is more always better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so I think that there is something very good about using this to be mindful about, you know, what what you do and what brings you joy and where to find it. But I think that there is sometimes a trap of thought that is like, well, I will always it will always be better if there is more. Like, Tracy, you love being in Hawaii. Would it, would it be as special if you did live there? I mean, maybe it would, maybe, maybe it would be great. But I think that there are experiences in our life that are beautiful for their brevity, right? And then there's this whole middle ground of things that's like, I love this, but if I was doing it every day, I I just might not love it exactly as much. So I think that that's part of the mindfulness, right? Is saying, is it that more of this would bring me joy? Is it that just that choosing the moments for it more mindfully would bring me joy?
SPEAKER_00I think you're on to something. When I read this article, my take was I don't like this. And so I came up with my own idea. Ooh, I love it. Which has got uh uh shades of what you said and what you said, Tracy, I think, and maybe something a little different from both. Uh so I have the touches theory. Touches, which sounds creepy. It does but it isn't. We'll come up with a different name. But for now I'm calling it. But for now we're calling it the touches theory. And uh and if you say it that way, touches, it's not creepy at all.
SPEAKER_03No, not at all. I don't feel creeped up.
SPEAKER_00This is what I what I call touches, are all the contacts you make with people, even if they are not face-to-face. So this can include emails, texts, phone calls, zooms, old-fashioned letters, and thoughts, memories, meditations, reflections.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You can visit gravesites, look at pictures, because maybe they're not in the world anymore.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um all of that counts. Absolutely. Absolutely. All of that counts. So if you only see some cool person in your life a couple of times a year, or only a couple of times every five years, yeah. Maybe you don't have to move to Melbourne with get your wallaby. You don't have to do that. You can send them more notes. Yeah. You can write them a card. You can call them.
SPEAKER_03There's lots of ways for connection. All of that counts. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So the problem I have with his the depressing math theory is that he's not with the basic idea, but the to be mindful, but to yeah, but to to only count, you know, this face-to-face visits. And if you're not maximizing those, then somehow, you know, that's something to worry about and change in your life, where you can do all kinds of easy things. And after important people leave your life, they leave this mortal coil, they die, and you lose them in their corporeal manifestation, you you can spend still spend lots of time almost hearing their voice, thinking about them, looking at pictures, reflecting on things that the um experiences you have together, things they said. So what part of my touches theory is if you can increase your touches, which is easy to do, that also increases your joy.
SPEAKER_03I think that also decreases the sense of anxiety of needing to maximize every moment. Yeah. Right? Because there can be some anxiety to this too that takes away from the joy you get from that, of feeling like every single moment needs to be perfectly mindful. Am I living this one well? Is this one good? Yes, that's not losing time worrying about whether this one is good. Right. And then that sucks the joy out of any of them. So I think it's a balance like anything else. The more mindful you are and making choices that you can in the moment, but also really looking at what your sphere of influence is and having it be a more um I really don't like the word balanced, but I can't come up with another word that would make sense, but a balanced view of it.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03Of like, yes, there are things within my sphere of influence that I can do. I can plan a vacation to a beach that I enjoy yearly and look forward to that. Right. So my touches about that are coming up every day because I'm looking forward to that trip and the enjoyment of it. That's as enjoyable for me as being there every single day.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, when it's done, you can have a slideshow of photographs that you would check in on and you know, remember the joy of it.
SPEAKER_00The other thing that goes along with my touches theory is where he says, you know, you have a finite amount of opportunities because at some point you're gonna die.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, they're ticking away and it creates a little stress. What I say is, no, no, no. If you have an infinite number of touches, you'll never, you could send uh my friend an email every 30 minutes and make them a little nutty.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But but I could do that, and it's like touch, touch, touch, touch, touch. There's no limit. I like that sort of instead of being, oh, what are just like you were saying, Madeline, am I doing it right? This is like, I've got infinite ways that I can connect on this per with this person.
SPEAKER_05Well, speaking of weird math, uh, like the Monty Hall problem, there's a problem, and I'm forgetting I can look it up later or something, but I'm forgetting whether it's called Achilles and the Hare or Achilles and the Tortoise, because it's not the tortoise and the hare, Achilles isn't taking the place of one of them for some reason.
SPEAKER_00Is the cat dead in the box? We don't know.
SPEAKER_05The point of this is there are two people racing towards a wall, right? And it's, you know, when are they gonna get there? How long is it gonna be until they get there? But if instead of thinking it about it in terms of time, you think about it in terms of fractions, like in the first minute, Achilles gets halfway to the wall.
SPEAKER_02He gets there.
SPEAKER_05Halfway to halfway, and halfway to halfway to halfway, and the fraction keeps shrinking, but it never reaches zero. And I think there's something about that that is a much more hopeful way about looking at this.
SPEAKER_00It's like the infinite coastline. So when you read about fractals and stuff, it's all about how you measure. Yes. So a coastline the coast of Oregon is whatever it is, however many hundred miles or whatever that is. Set amount. Cool. But if your measurement is small enough and you can like measure little pieces. Yeah, like the grains of sand, you can have those tinier. Then you end up with infinite coastline.
SPEAKER_05Right, and you stretch that out and it's so much longer. Ah! Oh my god, we've done it!
SPEAKER_00So this was the intervention. Yes.
SPEAKER_03We didn't want we didn't want to name it as an intervention because we thought, you know, your hackles would be up. No. It has been tried and tried again. And uh this is the first time it's ever happened. So I just want to say that.
SPEAKER_00So that's the good news. The bad news is you've got a lot of math homework to get done.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a lot of backlog and all that.
SPEAKER_00There's a backlog.
SPEAKER_03I'm now anxious again.
SPEAKER_00We've been in touch with your teachers. Oh no.
SPEAKER_05The thing that made me love math, and this is such a non sequitur, uh, is that my mom, my mom loves to shop. We all love to shop, right? You know, just like, and not even, you know, buying tons of stuff, but just the experience of going out and looking at paintings. Exactly, exactly. And I enjoy it too, but when I was younger, I did not enjoy it as much. And she would be off looking for things in a store and it would be, you know, kind of dragging on and dragging on. And my dad would sit with me outside of whatever changing room or fitting room, and he would go, okay, start with five, multiply by two, divide by three, do this, and would just like go through. And it would be this joyous like, you know, at the end, you do we have the same number here? Is it joy? That brought me so much joy. Just like, I don't know, just spending that time together. That's just lovely. Well, made me love math.
SPEAKER_03I, you know what made me not love math? That experience, that exact thing? That kind of thing. And then my parents telling me, Oh, I guess you're just not very good at this.
SPEAKER_05Oh, see, that was the thing was even when I got it wrong, it was like, okay, no, let's start over. Like, what where did it go? What did it do? I guess you're just not very good at this.
SPEAKER_03You're a good reader. You're not good at math.
SPEAKER_00You know what? But they were ahead of their time because what they were doing was just keeping it real for you.
SPEAKER_05They were negging you to where they God, that's awful. I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_03Mrs. Flynn in fifth grade didn't help either. Oh, as we've discussed. She and Bridget could have been buddies. Get off at Flynn. Well, get off at fly.
SPEAKER_05As we've discussed, though, I'm the the rare species that had good parents. So you're just rubbing it in our rubbing our noses in it.
SPEAKER_03What I hope is that my children will be on a podcast one day saying the things you're saying.
SPEAKER_05Hey, heck yeah. I bet they will. Yeah, I bet they're not.
SPEAKER_00That's one kid, though. That one kid. That kid is no good. So I gotta tell you.
SPEAKER_03He's the only one I birthed. Let's be able to do that. Oh, there you go. The only one I birthed.
SPEAKER_00The others you stole out of a shopping cart at Walmart.
SPEAKER_03I adopted.
SPEAKER_00Good for you. Because at Walmart, they leave kids.
SPEAKER_03Let's be clear, there was a subterranean Walmart in China involved in the adoption. Obviously. That's a given.
SPEAKER_00The kids are running around loose. Nobody knows who they belong to anyway.
SPEAKER_03Right. Well, I have one of them.
SPEAKER_00There you go. So you pick up a little junior in hardware.
SPEAKER_05Who's what's the problem? Who's to say?
SPEAKER_00They're too young to know what's going on. So the other part of my theory is uh that um sometimes, and this connects with what you were saying, Madeline, sometimes a decrease in touches can increase your joy. So there's an inverse relationship. Yes. So if you're spending a lot of time with people you don't really enjoy that much. Get out. Subtract the time.
SPEAKER_03You can run, hit the bricks. Climb less time. Here's the thing. Some people are gonna be not loving this. My parents not being here on this mortal planet anymore is one of the best things that's ever happened to me. I'm so glad for you then.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I wonder why you were so glad for you. I always wonder why that bumper sticker's on your car. So uh do you want to give a quick a quick synopsis of why you just said that for people who don't know? Because that's pretty extreme.
SPEAKER_03It is. My parents were difficult. And on the outside, every no one would have thought that, right? It was a perfectly like outside picture of the family looked good. Inside picture was just emotionally difficult. It wasn't dramatic. It wasn't, you know, no one would look at that and be like, Well, you should really write a book about that crazy story. It wasn't that, it was the little paper cuts, right? Well, expect a thousand paper cuts.
SPEAKER_00Some of those paper cuts, I know a c one or two, and one time you told me, and I think this is right, is that your mother uh allowed you to have a pet, I think it was a dog or a cat, and then you came back from school or whatever, and she had given it away.
SPEAKER_03To a man at the gas station.
SPEAKER_00What so you fell in love with this animal? Was it a dog or anything?
SPEAKER_03His name was Pepper. He was Black Lab Mex.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, the cutest dog ever. She gave Pepper away to a man at the gas station.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh. Just months after we'd moved to New Jersey, and I was sad, and Pepper was my only friend.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you're in New Jersey, so hello.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But there were some things that were bigger than paper cuts. Right. Well, go ahead. A lot of paper cuts and a few amputations. Yeah, yeah. There were some big things. Anywho, those things didn't get better as my parents got older.
SPEAKER_00And um That's because they got better at it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they did. They really did. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They refined their skill set.
SPEAKER_03I mean, my mom used to send me clothes that were a little too big for her and send them to me and say, These will probably fit you.
SPEAKER_01Oh boy. Wow.
SPEAKER_03Oh boy. Along with cutouts from the newspaper from Weight Watchers and thought maybe I could connect with a group. Anyway, she's she was fun. She was a good time. My dad was great too. Um sounds it. Anywho, when my d when my dad got really sick with cancer, I went to go fly back to New Jersey. Yeah. And you know, I hadn't talked to them in a year because, you know, and um they left a voicemail on the thing, hey, your dad, we're in the ER, they've given him six weeks to live, give us a call. And so I did, and then I flew back to New Jersey and on the way on the plane, I was thinking all these things I was gonna say, and all like I had a lot of stuff, right? And I got there, and then I saw this man who had always been so powerful in my world, and he was small and frail, and had an oxygen tank and a walker that he took out to the back porch with him to smoke and with the oxygen tank. It didn't blow up in that moment. Anyway, um, and what I realized was I didn't need to say any of those things anymore. They just it went away. And the person that you needed to say them to wasn't there, right? And it wasn't necessary. Yeah. And the the need for that left and it stopped taking so much real estate up in my head.
SPEAKER_05Oh good.
SPEAKER_03Um, then my mom passed away a f just a few years ago, so like 20 years after my dad. And um similarly, I hadn't talked to her for like four years, and uh my therapist said, Do you have regrets? Are there things you should say? And I was like, actually, no, I don't have any. But I realized that when she actually died, it took up even less uh real estate in my head. It just gave closure.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_03It's done. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for sharing that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, so increase in certain touches, yeah. I mean touches, can can increase your joy, but decreasing other touches is another way to yes, to increase your joy and should be looking for those opportunities.
SPEAKER_05Sometimes we have to give ourselves permission to cut things and people out of our lives.
SPEAKER_00I'm telling you, it is the best thing. Be mindful, be present, meditate on it, think about it, and see which touches you want to increase and which ones you want to decrease.
SPEAKER_05Lance, that, boil.
SPEAKER_00So, Madeline, I can tell you're just busting to share something.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Earlier, earlier when you were asking Tracy her favorite place, I thought you were gonna ask, for some reason, I thought you were gonna ask what her favorite math problem was, and I was so ready to tell you that my favorite math problem is that seven times eight is fifty-six because it's five, six, seven, eight, and it's just so satisfying.
SPEAKER_03I love that you love that.
SPEAKER_05It's just really satisfying, guys.
SPEAKER_00It is you know that Tracy's kid almost killed her. Thank you, Tracy. Thanks for all your cool comments and your sharing of your bleeding out at any time. That is frightening. Terrifying, yeah, appreciate you being here and also the Divine M. Thank you for being here for this episode. And thanks to everyone for joining us for this episode. We really appreciate you joining us every week. Our little community is growing, and we're excited about that. If you can follow us on Instagram, if you have the opportunity to rate us on an app that you use that allows for ratings, give us the highest rating, give us a sparkling review. That actually really helps.
SPEAKER_05If on Rate My Professor you can give us the chili pepper, that would be great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a thing you can do. Uh, I know now I haven't checked it out yet, but I'm going to. There are spaces on TikTok that are devoted to podcasts and podcast recommendations. If you like this show and you're on TikTok, uh help us out that way too. Really, that is the best thing you do. Again, put the wallaby down, use your free hand to send a link to your favorite show, to a friend, a colleague, somebody that you want to increase your with. And it really does help us. Um, and we are totally a grassroots organization here, so any help you give us actually is so appreciated. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you have been forced by two vulture nuns to call your mother or just someone flexing your mathleet muscles, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.
SPEAKER_03Bye.