Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
YOU DID A NICE THING, BUT DIDN'T GET A "THANK YOU"...NOW WHAT?
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Madeline joins Ross to discuss what happens when we don't get the "thank you's" we deserve. Tangents include: Pan's Labyrinth; Orlando Airport; Jimmy Buffett; youngish women; etiquette; ferrets; Tiny Tim; expectation setting.
Notes:
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
He's got my back.
SPEAKER_02Nobody asked him to do that.
SPEAKER_00He looks like a Sherpa.
SPEAKER_02No one asked him to do that.
SPEAKER_00And he starts he starts hissing at me.
SPEAKER_01He's like, you are so selfish.
SPEAKER_00Where is this coming from, this demon snake mouth? Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today's guest is someone who's like an intellectual Santa with a bag of smarts over her shoulder and in a hurry to get down your brain chimney. Madeline!
SPEAKER_04Hello! Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the show, everyone, and welcome to all of you that listen every week. We ask you to do us a couple of favors. We ask you to share the show. That's the best way you can help us and help us grow our community. It's very much appreciated. And we, by the way, thank you for being here. We love talking to you every week.
SPEAKER_02We're glad to have you.
SPEAKER_00We're very glad to have you. If you can, this is a new promotion. But if you can give us a five-star reading and a sparkling review, we will likely read it on an upcoming episode.
SPEAKER_04We will uncork that sparkling review.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So, and also feel free to reach out to us uh uh, as I said, on Instagram, just to chit-chat. People do that, and we love hearing from you. You can send us an email and ask questions about the about me or some of the guests or any of the guests really. You can uh talk about the topics, you can suggest alternative ways to think about the things that we talk about, you can suggest topics that you would love to hear us opine on. Because there's one thing we know how to do is opine.
SPEAKER_04We're good at that.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00So those are that's all the housekeeping.
SPEAKER_04We kept the house.
SPEAKER_00Let's get started.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We know that people like to do nice things for other people.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00Hold the door, buy a gift, send a card for a birthday, do a favor, go the extra mile, put someone else's welfare above our own.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But what if we do these things and don't get a thank you? Or we don't get whatever response we were expecting. Some of us, maybe a lot of us, when we don't get a thank you, feel resentful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, unappreciated.
SPEAKER_00It's hard to be a giver in this world.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Many times people just take and move on as if they were entitled.
unknownEntitlement.
SPEAKER_00Like your giving is just another natural phenomenon like the sunshine. How do you feel when you don't get a thank you? First of all, do you ever do nice things for people?
SPEAKER_04I love doing nice things for people. I do.
SPEAKER_00I know you do. Just doing this podcast is a nice thing.
SPEAKER_04Thanks, bud. I like doing it.
SPEAKER_00So, but uh, and I think that I thank you mostly every time. But have you ever done something for someone and they didn't thank you?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And that can be I want to say, right? Like we all want to say, like, oh, it's about the doing of the thing. Right. And you know, it's it's of course it doesn't matter what response I get, but it kind of does matter.
SPEAKER_00Would you say it was irksome?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean irksome or or depending on the situation, a little hurtful, right? Like it's not that I'm doing it in most cases, although in some cases, right, I'm not a perfect person. Sometimes you're doing it because you want the thank you. Most of the time I'm not doing it because I want the thank you, but the thank you is like the nice little it feels good, right? And so if someone doesn't respond like that, you sort of start to feel like, why did I go to this effort if they aren't gonna care about it?
SPEAKER_00It's a complex social interaction. It's much more complicated than we think. And there's so many variations on this. Like when somebody does something a stranger does something nice for you, but you don't need them to do something nice for you.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_00You didn't ask them to do anything nice for you, and you're not ready for the nice thing.
SPEAKER_04Sometimes that's bad.
SPEAKER_00I am a- And then they get mad because you didn't acknowledge it, but you're like, I wasn't going in that building, so I didn't need you to hold the door.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm a I'm I'm a a youngish woman, uh, and I get, you know, we get the the, you know, you look prettier if you smile, or even just like, nice, what a lovely smile you have. And it's like, that's great, but I didn't ask you to oh, I feel uncomfortable. Oh, yeah. Right? Like they're they're trying to potentially think in their brains that they're giving you a compliment, but it's just uncomfortable and bad, and you just want to run away and hide somewhere.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just think people need to stop saying things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, don't don't do that. Don't listeners.
SPEAKER_00So don't approach younger. What'd you describe yourself?
SPEAKER_04I'm a youngish woman.
SPEAKER_00You're a youngish woman. And uh I'll agree with that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00I think I just don't approach youngish why why am I saying young?
SPEAKER_04I mean, really, don't approach anybody and just be like, wow, nice smile. That's just weird.
SPEAKER_00Don't approach Madeline.
SPEAKER_04Don't approach me ever. That's not true.
SPEAKER_00So let's say you give somebody a special gift or do something that you and you don't get a response ever. Yeah. Do you ask them about it? Man, so what would you do?
SPEAKER_04Sometimes I try to do the tiptoe thing.
SPEAKER_00Okay, what's the tiptoe thing?
SPEAKER_04The tiptoe thing is like you give someone something and they're like, oh, and they kind of don't respond to it. And then you you're like, oh, well, do you you're trying to say like you're trying to ferret out, do you like it? But you're trying to do it subtly, right? And so it might be something that you you give it a couple days. Like if I like let's say I make you, Ross, um, a batch of cookies that I know you really like. Because I like to bake and I like to make cookies.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, by the way, do that anytime.
SPEAKER_04Okay, perfect. Um, maybe next time I show up here, I'll have some cookies.
SPEAKER_00Anytime.
SPEAKER_04Uh so let's say I make you this batch of cookies and you kind of don't, we're, you know, in the middle of a conversation, kind of just get on another topic you never thank me for, you don't really say anything about it. I'm like, oh, okay, I don't know. So maybe like a week or so later, I'm like, oh hey, like I'm I'm baking something again. Did you like those? By the way, is that like a flavor that you like? Or like, you know, and you're you're not you're not asking for a thank you, you're just like checking in about it and giving them the opportunity to give you a thank you.
SPEAKER_00It's like a uh to me, it's it's a yeah, you called it tiptoeing around the ferret.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that's what I said. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's but you're you're like sneaking up on them and you're sneaking up on the issue by saying, uh, look, you screwed up by not thanking me. I'm giving you another swing.
SPEAKER_04You've got another opportunity, don't you waste it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So uh you know, and sometimes though, when you do that, because I've done that too.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The thank you you get is this obligatory. Oh, oh, yeah, thanks for the call. Yeah, that was great. And that feels worse somehow. It does. Because now it feels like you force them into it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that's bad.
SPEAKER_00So it ha this happens to me a lot, and I'm always tempted to either do what you did, tiptoe around the ferret. Yeah, or uh tiptoe around the ferret. That's uh Tiny Tim. Yeah. Uh or I resent them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, and hold a grudge or something.
SPEAKER_04I'm not gonna make them cookies again.
SPEAKER_00But then I then what I tend to do is try to get more mindful about okay, what was this all about in the first place? What were my motivations in the first place?
SPEAKER_05Self-reflection.
SPEAKER_00Was I really was this really about making them happy and bringing a little joy in their life? Or was it about something that I needed? Some kind of affirmation, some kind of show-off thing that maybe I was doing.
SPEAKER_04I needed to feel like I was a good baker when I made you cookies. I needed you to say, wow, these are great. You did good.
SPEAKER_00Or you wanted me to stop approaching you. Yeah. So you gave me cookies and hope that I would stay away. Yeah. Yeah, which would never work. You start giving me cookies, I'm like a stray cat. Yeah, I'm around. Right. Um, but I try to go through that process where I once I feeling a temptation to check in with somebody because I never heard from them, or I start feeling resentment, which is sometimes I feel both at the same time, uh-huh, then I start thinking about okay, what was this about? And usually when I do that, I find that there was uh some selfish component to it. Yeah. Not completely, but there's like a part where I wanted something from them too.
SPEAKER_04Right. And I mean, I think there's this, there's also this fine line between like selfish and another word that I can't find, or maybe I'm trying to say that selfish isn't always bad, in that sometimes we do have these very human needs for reassurance and things, right? And so maybe if that way of going about it didn't work, maybe you find another one if that's what you're you're needing and craving.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm one of these people who have spent a lot of time thinking about that word selfish, and I will say I don't, I think it's a neutral word.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think that there are many times, so we tend to lionize people who are so-called quote unquote selfless.
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00I find those people are some of the angriest people in the world.
SPEAKER_04They've got they're not having their needs met.
SPEAKER_00No, and they're so resentful. Yeah. So, so don't, yeah. So I I think it's okay to think about yourself because ultimately when you're prioritizing your needs, you're in much better shape to respond to other people's needs.
SPEAKER_04100%. You gotta fasten your own oxygen mask.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Wow, your brain is amazing. Oh my god, thank you. Wow, it's like a labyrinth of cool thoughts.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_00It's like Pan's Labyrinth. I never really watched that movie.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. I'm flattered. That's a fun movie. Doug Jones with his eyeballs in his hands.
SPEAKER_00Is that is that the one with David Bowie?
SPEAKER_04No. Well, that's Labyrinth. That's uh Jim Henson's Labyrinth.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04As opposed to Pan's Labyrinth, which is uh Guillermo del Toro film. Okay. Both are very good, but very different vibe. It would be a very fun double feature.
SPEAKER_00So I look at my motives. Was I doing it to Curry Favor? Right. Make an impression, send some kind of message. Uh, and if and if I once I do that analysis, and sometimes I'll do it ahead of time. Like, why am I doing this?
SPEAKER_04But yeah, you're in the middle of baking the cookies and you're like, okay, why am I baking the cookies?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then and then sometimes once I re-evaluate, I feel a lot less um bad about it. I will say the the the current books on etiquette say you should never ask.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_00And they they at the same time they suggest other oblique approaches you can make. But I think any of it, the people person automatically knows, oh, you're fishing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I didn't say I was thank you. And they're they then they feel bad. And then sometimes sometimes they resent being shown up that way.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But in either case, if someone hasn't acknowledged the gift, you're not supposed to ask. They've already expressed themselves by not responding.
SPEAKER_04I think that depends. Personally, I think that depends a little on your relationship with them. Because I think that if you have a close relationship with someone, it's actually much healthier to be able to say, Hey, this thing kind of hurt me. Can we talk about it?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and that's true.
SPEAKER_04An acquaintance, right? Then maybe you just gotta let that go.
SPEAKER_00But that's true. But even when you think of like the like let's say you have a really close relationship with a a partner, someone you live with, maybe. Yeah. Or a child or whatever, and you invest your time and ex and sometimes money or whatever into some kind of special thing, uh-huh, and they don't respond, or they do, but it's perfunctory in some way, or you feel like it is, you're right in that problem again. Even though you really know them and you felt like you could bring it up, like you still are in this kind of tricky space where you can um it actually can get worse for your probing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Probing can be bad. Probing is bad can be bad, and approaching youngish woman women. Yeah, they cannot say those words. It's hard. Youngish women. There's a sort of a mental block. There's a mental block there. Um, I'm gonna read you a letter. We we did a letter a couple of episodes ago, and here's a letter someone wrote in to one of those advice. I'm not gonna mention where I got it. Here's the letter. Starting now. I bought a bedside table at a used furniture store.
SPEAKER_04Hey, good for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I love used furniture stores, by the way.
SPEAKER_00When I was cleaning it out, I discovered $700 of treasury bonds from the 1970s in a drawer.
SPEAKER_04Congratulations!
SPEAKER_00I was able to track down the registered owner.
SPEAKER_04Oh.
SPEAKER_00Which took considerable time.
SPEAKER_04You're so good.
SPEAKER_00I called to verify her identity and get her current address.
SPEAKER_03This is so much effort.
SPEAKER_00And I mailed the bonds the next day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Dang, you're a good person.
SPEAKER_00A week later, I received a stock thank you card. She signed her name, but didn't bother to write a message. But I think she owed me a personalized note. And a finder's fee.
SPEAKER_04I mean, that would be nice.
SPEAKER_00Wouldn't have been her wouldn't have hurt. Yeah. Is it fair to feel slighted?
SPEAKER_04Yes. I say yes.
SPEAKER_00Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_04I'm I'm not usually I'm usually the person who would be like, no, let's all just be nice to each other. Yeah, you feel slighted.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so is it fair? So they sent a thank you note, but it was kind of like one of these printed it out. Yeah, it was like a card saying thank you. And then they wrote their name, and that was it. And the person thought, hey, I was I was heroic.
SPEAKER_04I went to a lot of effort here.
SPEAKER_00I was super honest, super heroic.
SPEAKER_04But you went to a lot of effort to get it back to that person.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh, just going back and looking at what they wrote, I will say what what sounds like a lot of effort are pretty basic things. Like I called to verify her address.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mailed the bonds.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I mean those are I mean these are multiple steps being taken to return something to this person.
SPEAKER_00You're not yeah, but you're you're not building an orphan's home.
SPEAKER_04You know, but still, I mean how many steps how many steps does it take to just keep those? One step.
SPEAKER_00I guess what I what I respond to is that I think their expectations were a little high. Like I would question their motivation if they're that jaded, if they're feeling that bad about not getting a reward.
SPEAKER_04But it's not just the I mean they mentioned the reward, like that would be nice, but also just a more personalized thank you. Like, even just like I really like if someone I would expect at least the stock thank you card to have a note that was like, hey, thank you so much for the effort. Okay. Like a sentence, not just a signature.
SPEAKER_00I respect that. I think the person it was cool that that they put in the time to do the right thing. Yeah. But if they really started out thinking I'm gonna get a reward, then I'm not sure. Because I'm because if they hadn't put that in there, if they hadn't put the thing about a finder's fee, yeah, I would have agreed with you that yeah, they deserve more. But when they kind of drop that in, I'm always very watchful and observant when people just kind of drop something in at the end.
SPEAKER_03That's fair.
SPEAKER_00Because then I feel like, oh, that was the main thing all along.
SPEAKER_03That's fair.
SPEAKER_00You thought you were gonna get a reward of what? I don't know what kind of reward you thought you were gonna get, but something.
SPEAKER_04I do think it is reasonable to have had the thought cross your mind that if someone is wealthy enough to forget about $700 worth in this bedside table they got rid of, if that's if that's forgettable enough for them, then they have enough loose income that they could give you a finder's fee and that depending on the kind of person they are, they might. I think it's reasonable for that thought to cross your mind.
SPEAKER_00I think it's different if they got money in a drawer that they forgot about, they're probably rich.
SPEAKER_04Right. So I think it's a reasonable thought to cross your mind. I do think there's a difference between having that thought and having it be like the reason you do the thing, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I think so. For me, I think it goes back to this idea that it's reasonable to have expectations, um, but it's important to understand what your expectations are when you're doing things. Yeah. And see, that's the that that's the treacherous part of this and the complicated part of this, is because we we sometimes are really not aware of the expectations we're laying on other people until it's too late and the thing has already happened.
SPEAKER_04That's fair.
SPEAKER_00Um, so a couple examples from my life. Um I know all I have seven, I had uh at one point I had nine people in my family. So I have two parents and six six brothers and sisters. Yeah. And I knew all that when I was old enough to, you know, be on my own, I knew all their birthdays. Yeah. And I would call them or send them something on their birthday every year. That's nice. And uh very few of them would ever call me or send me a note and so that that sucks.
SPEAKER_04I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00It felt bad.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I reached out to them and I said, Hey, I know this isn't really a habit that we have, but you know, I s I would really like this reciprocated because I I like knowing that it's your birthday and sending you a little hello, it's your birthday and how you doing, or giving you a call. I would like that too. And it doesn't have to be a big deal, it could be anything.
SPEAKER_04I think that's a reasonable ask, Roth.
SPEAKER_00They still didn't do it.
SPEAKER_04I think you made a reasonable ask, and that I will repeat myself, that just sucks. So sorry.
SPEAKER_00But my first thank you. But my first reaction was, I'm gonna not, I'm just not gonna do this. I'm not gonna say, you know, celebrate their birthdays anymore because they're not gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_04They're not gonna celebrate mine, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But then I thought about it and I thought, no, I like doing this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, brings you some joy to do that check-in.
SPEAKER_00I reframed it as this is just something I like doing, and I won't be surprised if they don't remember. And every once in a while, somebody would remember.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Fast forward to now, we all remember each other's birthdays. We get online and we have a Zoom, even no matter where we are in the world. So it's all it's all gotten better. But it took a while for that to happen. But what what m what allowed me to continue to celebrate their birthdays is I erased that expectation from my mindset. So I'm not doing this now with the idea that it's going to be reciprocated. I'm doing it because it's joyful from you like doing it.
SPEAKER_04I think that is very good and very healthy. But it took a while. And yeah, and it makes sense that it takes a while. And I think that it is still also a reasonable emotional response to want them to do the same, right? Like I think it's good that you were able to separate that from why you were doing it for them. But I think you that both of those things are still valid.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've talked about this in other contexts, but I just think some people that in our lives are not able or willing to behave the way we want them to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we have choices. We can either like separate ourselves from those people, yeah, or we could just change our expectations.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we stop putting them in the category of people who behave in the way that we want them to. Because they don't. And once it for me, it allows me to continue to have relationships with people that have disappointed me without holding a grudge against them. It's like, oh, you're we're not, we don't have the friendship I thought we had. Fine, that's okay. We have a different level of friendship.
SPEAKER_04That's I have this friend who I'm immensely grateful to because I'm I'm someone who I'm a people person, if you couldn't tell. I like humans.
SPEAKER_00A people person a lot. You're dynamic.
SPEAKER_04Thank you.
SPEAKER_00You're a magnet.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god, thank you.
SPEAKER_00I like a social magnet.
SPEAKER_04I like being a social magnet.
SPEAKER_00And that's why people approach you on the street. Because you're a magnetic. Wow, I cannot a magnetic youngish woman. That is my new, that's my new warm-up.
SPEAKER_04That's the warm-up. Well, so I like people, right? And I like spending time with people and I like talking to people, but because of that, I have a lot of relationships in my life. Um, and there's a certain point at which, as a human being, you just cannot balance that many relationships. Like there are a lot of people that I really enjoy talking to, but I do not have the hours in a day to reach out to all of them. And that's just an unfortunate fact. And I have this friend who I was really close with when we lived near each other and we don't live near each other anymore. And I I will admit that I do a very bad job of being the person to reach out to her. Okay. Um, because it just does I just there's only so many hours in the day, and I'm just not good at it. And I've gotten to the point that I can acknowledge that about our relationship. And I am so immensely grateful because what she does is when she's like, I'd really like to hang out with Madeline, she reaches out to me and says, Hey, can we schedule a time to hang out? I really like that. Yeah. And she doesn't, I mean, bless her, she does not seem to bear a grudge about this, about the fact that she's the person who asks. And like, I will put, you know, a couple tiny points in my court that when she does reach out, I find a time to do it and I enjoy myself when I'm there and we have a great time. And like, I ask how she's doing and what's up with her. Um, and I think I'm a good friend to her when we do communicate, but she is pretty much always the person who who reaches out about it. And I think this is one of those where I can see that I'm the person who's not not doing the reciprocating I should be doing, right? And I'm so immensely grateful to her for I don't know, being being okay with that being our relationship and finding the way to balance that in a healthy way for her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I it's just really important, you know, to um I think to do sort of an inventory of your expectations in each relationship that you have so that when things get out of whack, you can go back and review.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And what I find that it's so much more efficient to just change the way you think about the relationship. It's so much easier than. Getting the people to change and be the people you want them to be. Because yeah, maybe that'll work, and maybe it's necessary for that to work if you're living with them, you need them to pick up their socks or whatever. Right. But but but beyond that, in your normal relationships, uh people are behaving the way they are.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so you can let them know how you feel.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00And you can let them know what you would prefer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and see how they react to that.
SPEAKER_00But a lot of people aren't gonna be able to do it, and then you go come back to when you're talking about doing something nice for somebody. You have to decide what you are really wanting to get out of it, and is it worth it? Right. So another example was when we moved my dad up here when he became uh in need of assisted living, and we've talked about it on a different podcast, but at there was part of me because I have all these siblings, right? I part of me initially had this tinge of I'm gonna get extra credit for doing this.
SPEAKER_04Uh I think that's a normal it's not like a it's not a reaction to that most of us would be proud of necessarily, but I think that it is a very normal reaction to have.
SPEAKER_00It was a tinge, and then I thought about it and I said, No, that's not why I'm doing this. Right. I said I'm doing this with a light spirit because it's joyful for me.
SPEAKER_04That's really good.
SPEAKER_00And that was the truth.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so then it didn't matter.
SPEAKER_04Right, what the response is.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever been in a situation where somebody did something nice for you and they kind of called you out for not thanking them or being appropriately grateful or giving them whatever they wanted? Like can you think of any time?
SPEAKER_04I guarantee I've done it. I'm trying to think of a situation where somebody asked me about it. I mean, like, I'm I'm a I'm a fallible human being. I am sure that I have done it.
SPEAKER_00Um that's not right. Yeah. That can't be accurate.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I'm I'm having trouble thinking of a good example of a time somebody actually called me on it.
SPEAKER_00I will tell you, nothing makes me feel less thankful than someone asking me to be thankful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's fair. Even when they deserve it. Even when they deserve it.
SPEAKER_00Don't you want to say thank you? Aren't you gonna say thank you? It's like, oh yeah, yeah, thank you. I mean, like, it's so hard. It's so hard in that moment to erase the chagrin and the uh recrimination. Yeah, and and and just honestly give them what they're looking for. But you know, that's that's why it's really a complicated problem when you ask somebody about something to be thank you. I know in some cultures it's considered very rude to ask about a gift you've given. It's considered rude surprise me because it puts people in a spot like you owe me something. Yeah, so it's not a gift anymore, it's a transaction.
SPEAKER_05Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00So uh and and I think in our country it is transactional a lot of the time. Um, but in some cultures it's not, it's supposed to be about the spirit of actually giving. Yeah, and that's supposed to be a one-sided equation. It's like I'm doing this for you, and you don't have to do anything.
SPEAKER_04Anything in response, yeah. I I will say I'm good at I I like to think at least that I am good at gratitude in in the moment in person. Um, I like to show my gratitude for people. Um, I'm not always great at like distance gratitude when it's like somebody mails me a card or something. I'm not always good at mailing one back or or even just saying, Hey, thanks for this.
SPEAKER_00Right. And if somebody like there's this whole thing, like, okay, so somebody sends, I do something for somebody. They send me a thank you card. Yeah. Do I have to acknowledge the thank you for it?
SPEAKER_04Are we just stuck now in this eternal loop of you know, if I don't, thanks for the thank you, then they're like resentful because you didn't even say you got my thank you card.
SPEAKER_00And yes, I could, but it just feels like wow, layers.
SPEAKER_04I thought the buck stopped there. I thought we stopped the buck.
SPEAKER_00It's a lot more complicated when you start really breaking it down because there's all these circumstantial elements, it's really an interesting multi-factorial, you know, about how it's supposed to work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I don't like being cued, even when I should have said thank you and I forgot, or I was I mean, it's not a good feeling. And as I say, the etiquette, the current etiquette is you don't ask for thank yous, you don't ask for gift acknowledgement acknowledgements, no matter how much you need it. Yeah, I s got a birthday gift for a special friend of mine, and what was funny is they said, Oh, uh, I need your address, you know, because nobody knows anybody's address anymore because it's all email, but they wanted to send me, I'm assuming, yeah, my my presumption, yes, uh, my Sherlocan analysis was they're sending me a thank you note for this gift I gave them, which is cool because it was a special gift. Yeah, and then I never got a card.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, they never got around to it.
SPEAKER_00So it was worse. It was worse than them not saying anything. Yeah, well, they thought of it. They thought of it. It's the thought that counts.
SPEAKER_04Is it?
SPEAKER_00But but the etiquette is And it's the count that thinks, maha Wing. Uh the thing you're supposed to do is to always reconsider why you're giving people things, why you're doing things for people. And if you're really doing it to get something, it's probably fraught with disappointment.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that's a good habit to be in. That self-examination is a good habit to be in.
SPEAKER_00It can get complicated. Totally. I'm gonna tell you a story that really happened to me.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00I uh was on a uh I had this job where I had to travel places, and sometimes you'd just be over it. Traveling for a job sucks. Not home as much as you'd like, and it's just the travel world, like airplanes and airports. Yeah, it can get old fast. It sounds exciting to people who don't do it, but then when you when you do it a lot, you're just over all of it.
SPEAKER_04I think that's true of a lot of things that sound glamorous at first blush, right?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, once you're doing it every day, it's not that glamorous.
SPEAKER_00So sometimes it'd be stressful, like you'd be like, you know, rushing to one one gate to the next. You gotta make a connection. You've gotta make the flight because you gotta be in a place at a certain time. If you don't, you can be in trouble. So I was in, I had to go to Orlando.
SPEAKER_04I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, not to go to Disney World, but to do this meeting with somebody that I really it wasn't even about me, it was for somebody else, but I was anyway. They were in the middle, this is years ago when they were in the middle of completely redesigning the airport. So the airport was a construction zone.
SPEAKER_03God, I hate when that happens.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's just a mess.
SPEAKER_03That's the devil.
SPEAKER_00I needed to rent a car.
SPEAKER_03Oh god.
SPEAKER_00And so to get to the rental car house, you had to take a shuttle, uh-huh. But it was all screwed up because of the construction.
SPEAKER_04It was like, where do I go? How do I catch it?
SPEAKER_00We if you I got to this place and it's outside, of course, and there's tons of people milling around, there's no signs. Um you're asking, but like, is this where you get a rental car? Yeah, but that they're not.
SPEAKER_04But nobody knows who's doing what yet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you don't know where to wait. And this was back at a time where I used to carry luggage. I no longer travel with luggage.
SPEAKER_04Oh, good for you. That's that's a whole conversation there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we need to do that one. If I can't carry it on, I'm not interested in it.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so like a checked bag.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I will. And and I I travel very light no matter where I go or how long I'm gone. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like, how many pairs of underwear do I need?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe pretty much. Do I need underwear? I start with that question.
SPEAKER_04I travel very question to start with about many situations. I travel.
SPEAKER_00I travel very, yes. Do I need underwear? That should be your first question every day. So I travel very light.
SPEAKER_04But at the time, you were not.
SPEAKER_00No, I was um I was a youngish woman.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I um I just hit the microphone with my nose, which is not a flattering thing to do. It's like, hey, ease up on your nose. So uh denosify, dude. Uh so I was carrying like a one of those big fold-out suit bags. Yes. But it was heavy.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00And then I had this big rectangular black box.
SPEAKER_04Oh god, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I carried all my papers and junk in, and that probably weighed a hundred pounds.
SPEAKER_04So it was just like a mega briefcase.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was one of those stupid, it wasn't like fancy, it was just a big box with a handle on it.
SPEAKER_04Ugh.
SPEAKER_00And that stuff was heavy, you know.
SPEAKER_04And yeah, and you're dealing with it in the Florida heat outside.
SPEAKER_00I'm in the heat, I'm wearing a suit.
SPEAKER_04God, why?
SPEAKER_00I'm already pissed off, and everything's chaos.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm sure I look like a stressed-out person.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And in fact, I know I look like a stressed out person because while I'm trying to figure out where to go and how do I get a thing, and I just want to rent a car, I'm trudging around about oh no, 25, 30 yards away. There's a guy. Looks like he's like mid-50s. He looked middle-aged to me. I was probably early 30s.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's wearing like a relaxed-looking Hawaiian shirt and like shorts. Yeah. Looks like a beach comer kind of dude, a little stubble, salt and pepper hair. He's standing next to the shuttle that's supposed to be going to the parking lots, which nobody wants to go to any of the parking lots.
SPEAKER_01Going to rental car. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So he's standing there and he calls out to me, like, hey. And I'm looking around like, this guy could not be like me?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Who, me? And he gives me the yeah, you, you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So he starts waving me over, and I'm like, half of me is like, uh, I don't want to deal with whatever this is, I don't want it.
SPEAKER_04You don't want to deal with it. I'm stressed.
SPEAKER_00And I was, I admittedly was feeling pretty cranky.
SPEAKER_04I mean, anyone would be, I think.
SPEAKER_00I was in a cranky mood. So he calls out to me, he gestures me over there like he's gonna show me the mystery of a hidden cave or something. Right.
SPEAKER_04And it turns out that that man was Jimmy Buffett.
SPEAKER_00Whoa.
SPEAKER_04That was James Buffett.
SPEAKER_00No one's gonna believe that that's it. That's what he said to you. No, but that's exactly what I was saying. Wait, are you kidding me? No, no. He is, I've just, I'm just about to say, I was just about to say the words. He had the aura of someone you might meet in the Florida Keys.
SPEAKER_02Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00Which is Jimmy Buffettland, who who, after years of like being a Wall Street stockbroker, had an epiphany, chucked it all away, and now lives on six dollars a day. Yes, he's on he's in Margaritaville, he lives on six dollars a day and a bag of clams. That's it. That's all he does.
SPEAKER_04That's it. Flip-flops.
SPEAKER_00He looked calm, yes, flip-flops, tanned, yeah, calm, wise, relaxed. So I went over to this guy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because at this point, I don't know what I'm gonna do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he says, hello. I'm Duncan. And I see Mr.
SPEAKER_04Donuts?
SPEAKER_00And I see you.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god, what? This is that's so what?
SPEAKER_00I had no idea what he was talking about, but I was already uncomfortable. I can tell you.
SPEAKER_04I'm kind of uncomfortable just hearing it.
SPEAKER_00So you're cranky, and now you're being told you've been seen.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this Jimmy Buffett look-alike named Duncan is telling you he's seen it. So funny.
SPEAKER_00It's so funny that you connected with the Jimmy Buffett thing because that's exactly how it felt. Oh, and he goes, Oh, I can see you're in patience, aren't you? And I go, Well, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because look around.
SPEAKER_00I read the room, Duncan. And he's like, I knew it. Because I used to be just like you.
SPEAKER_04Oh no, please don't proselytize to me right now, sir.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, too late.
unknownOh no.
SPEAKER_00Too late.
SPEAKER_04You're in the church of Buffett now, baby.
SPEAKER_00So he goes on to tell me, you know, this good news.
SPEAKER_02Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00That he has had a conversation, a lovely conversation, with the driver of the parking lot shuttle.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And the driver of the parking lot shuttle has fallen under Duncan's magical Jimmy Buffett spell, and he has agreed to take Duncan to the rental car place.
SPEAKER_04Okay, this is good though. Okay, that's good. That's good. That's good.
SPEAKER_00And Duncan saw that I was frustrated and impatient and recognized his old self in me.
SPEAKER_04He saw it.
SPEAKER_00And he said, I want to help this young man. Oh my God. And so he gestured over to me, brought me over there so I could also get a ride on this unauthorized shuttle.
SPEAKER_04Which, like, that part's good, but like the the if the transaction is that you have to listen to the Church of Buffett.
SPEAKER_00Well, stand by.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00So my spirits lifted, and I was like, Yes. Okay. Never mind.
SPEAKER_04I love you.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna get well. I didn't feel like that, but it's kind of like, yeah, if we're going somewhere, yes. That I'm in. Yes to that. So off we go, just the two of us in a shut parking lot shuttle with a driver.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he s is sitting behind me so he can talk in my ear.
SPEAKER_03Oh no, I hate that.
SPEAKER_00So Duncan in his tanned face, like weathered, tan, but relaxed face. He started telling me his life story about how he used to be just like me. He used to be irritable. He used to be impatient. He used to care about his job. And he used to rush all around and act rudely and ri get, you know, road rage and yell at people, and he's just life was very unenjoyable. Just like me.
SPEAKER_04Clearly, he knows all of this about you.
SPEAKER_00He kept saying just like me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he God, he gets too much. And that was irritating to your soul. Because of the assumptions that are being made.
SPEAKER_00Duncan. Well, it's like he's like looking at the stereotype. Guy in suit, looking cranky, looking pissed off. He's just like me.
SPEAKER_04Right, right, right. He's running the rat race.
SPEAKER_00I don't need to know anything else.
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_00He admitted to like being a bad father and a bad husband and not a very good person. And he kept saying, just like you. And I'm like, wait, wait, it's so offensive. And you start feeling like defensive, like I want to, like, no, I'm not cranky, but I'm not a horrible person. Yeah. But anyway, it was all very hypnotic. Like, just like you, just like you.
SPEAKER_03Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00And I'm thinking, you know, oh God, how long is this going to go on? But he talks about how his moment of epiphany was a massive heart attack, which is a pretty common story.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the near-death experience.
SPEAKER_00And so he had his near death, his NDE. He changed his attitude, he changed his job, he changed his diet, he changed his life. He learned immediately what life was really about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the secret of all of it.
SPEAKER_00Got rid of everything that was getting in the way of his joy.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And his bliss.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And all of that stress.
SPEAKER_04Just chasing his bliss.
SPEAKER_00He learned all of it the hard way, but now he was a new person and he wanted to save me from it.
SPEAKER_04Oh God.
SPEAKER_00He wanted to save me.
SPEAKER_04People want to save you, that's the word.
SPEAKER_00He wanted to save me like a missionary.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I hate that.
SPEAKER_00He wanted me to experience a full life of love and charity and kindness. He was saving me from myself. Yeah, the way that he's defining it without any further knowledge about you or you know how it is when someone starts a new diet. Yeah. Or some kind of new exercise regimen. Yeah. When anybody does something new, it's fine that they're excited about it. But sometimes they can't stop talking about it.
SPEAKER_04No, like it's a pyramid scheme or something. Yeah. They gotta get you in on it on the ground floor.
SPEAKER_00And they want to tell you about every ingredient and when they eat. And I don't eat for 12 hours and then I eat 5,000 calories in 30 minutes, and then I don't eat again for another 12 hours. It's like, what are you? Okay. Are you out of your mind?
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_00How about just eating all day like I do?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. What if you just snack?
SPEAKER_00They everybody always wants you to go on their journey, right? And affirm the journey, but also join them on the journey.
SPEAKER_04Join them. Well, more accurately, follow in their footsteps on the journey.
SPEAKER_00Follow their footsteps. Oh man, I want to do a whole episode on following footsteps.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, he reminded me while I was listening to this whole tale of salvation that he was the one that got us on this bus. I mean. Why? Because he was this new gentle spirit. And it like it it attracts good karma.
SPEAKER_03Ah, ah.
SPEAKER_00Right? So he's just struck up a conversation with a driver, just two pleasant people having a moment, and it led to this solution for me. Like what a benefit I'm getting from his large, his social largest. Right. Okay. So we've finally, you know, and this is like an infinitely long ride. I mean, yeah, it could have taken 10 minutes, but it felt like 10 hours. Like he's whispering in my ear the whole time that just like me, just like me. Just like me. So we're pulling into this thing. Yeah. And then he starts saying, okay, now this this driver has really done us a favor. And we're gonna give him a big tip, aren't we?
SPEAKER_04We we are. Oh cool, oh, cool.
SPEAKER_00We are, and he kept saying it, big tip. This is gonna be a big tip. And it was a little irritating. You never want somebody telling you what you're gonna do. I was already planning to do it. I was already planning to do it. Obviously, you know, it's what you do. But he was like, but when anyone ever tells you what you're supposed to do when you were already planning to do it, it's a little, it pisses you off.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I mean, me too. I would completely agree with you. And allow me to say, I don't think James Buffett would ever do that. I don't want to malign James Buffett.
SPEAKER_00Oh, he'd be drunk and asleep in the back counting his billions. Uh that guy is a mega millionaire because he figured out that he could monetize not the song. No, I don't think he owned the song, but he monetized this thing called Margaritaville, which is a lifestyle.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00And that's how he made his money. He's very wealthy because it's a musical now, isn't there? Oh, I'm sure there's any there's no end to all the things, but when you're in the Florida Keys, you're surrounded by the spirit of Margaritaville.
SPEAKER_04It's with you. And I I And also with your spirit of Margaritaville.
SPEAKER_00I always like stories of entrepreneurs who go like, well, why don't I just create this thing called Margaritaville and monetize that and see and people are like, yeah, we love that. We love it.
SPEAKER_01Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Anyway. So big tip.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I agreed we need to tip him, but get off me with the big tip. So we get there. I don't have any small bill, like I had only what I at that time for me were big bills.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, take it out of the bank before you go on your trip. I guess.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I'm not gonna drop a huge amount of money on this guy, but I'm gonna give him a good tip.
SPEAKER_04Uh on the on the nice side of reasonable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's gonna be a good tip, but it's not it's not gonna be like because a lot of those drivers never get anything.
SPEAKER_02Anything, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I it was my habit to always tip, but I was gonna give like four or five times more than I normally give. Right, right. But I did not have change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I wasn't gonna leave a huge tip that I could not afford it.
SPEAKER_04Crazy insane either. Because I couldn't afford it. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Now, so I, as I'm leaving this bus, this shuttle bus, I tell the driver, I gotta get some change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So stand by.
SPEAKER_02I'll be right back.
SPEAKER_00And the problem was this was all makeshift where he took us, where the rental car places are. They're all like makeshift buildings or like Quonset huts. You have to walk up this huge hill, and it's still it's more chaos and madness.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_00But at least now we're gonna be able to see where we can get a rental car.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_00So I'm not carrying these heavy bags all the way up there. Right. I'm just not gonna do it. So I drop them on the curb where we get dropped out, and I figure I'll have to come back anyway to give this guy his money.
SPEAKER_05That's good.
SPEAKER_00And I'll get the car, I'll come back, I'll pay this guy, and then I'll get my bags and go to the next adventure, you know, wherever the cars are. And who knew what that was, you know, we didn't even know what that was gonna be. Right. So I walk up this hill, boiling hot, like I'm sweating in my stupid suit, but at least not carrying my bags.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00I get in, there's of course a huge line.
SPEAKER_04There's always a huge line.
SPEAKER_00So I get in line, I'm standing there, and all of a sudden, it's like Robert De Niro and Cape Fear. I hear this like sh this guttural shh like noise.
SPEAKER_05Oh god.
SPEAKER_00This rage, this coming, and I don't know what it is. Nobody knows what it is. Everybody's looking around, like, what is it?
SPEAKER_03What the hell is that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I'm like, I don't know. And all of a sudden, guess who's there?
SPEAKER_04Mr. Donuts himself.
SPEAKER_00Duncan.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Duncan is shows up, he's sweating bullets. Oh my god. He looks out of his mind with rage.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00He comes into this space where we're waiting in line to get rental cars, and he starts screaming at me.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00What is he doing? He's holding my bags.
SPEAKER_02Why?
SPEAKER_00He's got his bags, he's got my bags.
SPEAKER_02Nobody asked him to do that.
SPEAKER_00He looks like a sherpa.
SPEAKER_02No one asked him to do that.
SPEAKER_00And he starts, he starts hissing at me.
SPEAKER_01He's like, you, you, you are so selfish. And I'm like, where are you?
SPEAKER_00Where is this coming from? This demon snake mouth.
SPEAKER_04You made me carry your bags up that hill. I most certainly did not. I left my bags there and I was coming back for them, and I never asked you to carry them.
SPEAKER_00It was, I wish you were there with me. He was like Linda Blair angry. It's like his head was spinning around.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So he's standing there, he's yelling at me, and he's like, You promised to tip the driver.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm gonna as soon as I get some change.
SPEAKER_00You know, and he said, I was disgusting, and everybody's like experiencing this. Like, this seems dangerous and weird. And what is going on?
SPEAKER_04What's this guy gonna do? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I said, Hey, I needed to get change, you know? And he's like, You're disgusting, and he throws my bags down and he looks around at everyone to look for some sort of affirmation. Everybody is like looking up and looking around like that.
SPEAKER_01Nobody wants to make eye contact with that. What time is it? What are the cards I have here?
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And they're also looking for exits.
SPEAKER_04Everybody's actually looking at the pamphlets about the like little vacation tips and things for the area that no one ever looks at. Oh, this one has a horn.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Um, so so he's he's standing there, he's seething, he's sweating, he looks like a madman. Man.
SPEAKER_04I mean, he might be a madman.
SPEAKER_00And I have a I could not censor myself. And I said, hey Duncan, I'm not sure you're completely better yet. I thought maybe he was going to burst into flames. But he whirled around. He stopped out.
SPEAKER_03Didn't you say that he had a heart attack? He should be able to get a big thing. Well, that was the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00It was like he said I'm better and I'm mellow and I'm wearing a Hawaiian shirt and I'm karma and I'm whispering in people's ears. Sitting behind them on the bus. Dude, you are a freak. It's a perfect example of someone who says, I'm going to do a good deed. Right. But was so laden with expectations.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Oh my God. He had this, he had this whole vision in his head of the whole thing was going to play out. He had written the film in his head. Well, he's probably going to be.
SPEAKER_00He'd probably done it before, but one thing was going to be is I was going to be a a convert, a convert. So I'd be converted. Secondly, I would be so grateful to him.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00So I'd be so grateful to him. So much so that I would do his bidding, whatever he told me to do. Because now I was uh, you know, I was uh one of his apostles.
SPEAKER_04Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And I would do whatever he told me to do. And that's just the way it's build a church on the spot.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. This Florida rental car agency shall be the seat of our holy power.
SPEAKER_00The church of Jimmy Buffett shall be erected on this spot.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00So it was so laden with expectations, and when he assumed that I wasn't honoring all of that goodwill.
SPEAKER_04He gave the Sermon of Fury on the rental car mount.
SPEAKER_00He flipped into He flipped shit. Yeah, and he went to his real self.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Like Yeah, he revealed who he really was.
SPEAKER_00Like, wow, that's why you had a heart attack. Because you are you are rage filled. You are a rageful person. So it's often the case, even if we're not rage-filled and wearing Hawaiian clothes, if we do a good deed with high expectations, we are often disappointed. Because I think it's okay to want to thank you. It's okay to be acknowledged. It's normal.
SPEAKER_04It's normal, it feels good, and I think that it is a good thing to practice also when you are the one getting things, right? It's good for us to practice gratitude. But like you're saying, if the only reason you're really down in your heart of hearts, if the only reason you're doing the thing is that you're desperate for that gratitude, that's not you're putting a lot of expectation on something that might not play out the way you want it. You're setting yourself up to get what you need.
SPEAKER_00You're setting yourself up for disappointment.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I think sometimes we find ourselves in relationships like that where the people in our in our life are just behaving so strangely with a whole set of expectations that no one ever discussed. Right.
SPEAKER_04They've been performing this script that you had no idea you were supposed to be their scene partner in.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's such a great way to put it. And I think this whole transactional nature of giving gifts and getting thank yous is a bit of a dance. It's a bit of a scripted thing, and we are operating on a lot of unspoken assumptions and expectations that can get the whole thing fouled up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So thanks for uh opening that can of worms.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And thanks everyone for joining us. If you like what we're doing, share the show. Please find people that you think, you know, that's what I do with podcasts. I like, I tell people about them, and that's the best way to help grow our community. We'd like to do that. You can reach out to us on Instagram. I chat with people all the time on Instagram that list like the show and we chit-chat about the topics or we just talk about random things. Uh, you can connect with us on email, you can um ask us questions, you can suggest topics, you can support us on Patreon, there's so many things you can do, and we would welcome any of it.
SPEAKER_04Yep, please.
SPEAKER_00And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are schlepping someone's suitcase in a heat rage or just someone tiptoeing around a ferret, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.
SPEAKER_04Goodbye.