SPEAKER_01 0:00

What I do on a Tuesday is up to me.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention, and cause us to wonder, what and why. I'm Ron, your host, and my guest today is Elite Me215, and someone I have seen do an unannounced, fully interpreted dance at someone else's birthday party. It's Amy.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hi Ron! What a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

It's nice to have you again and welcome everyone. Please share our show. If you find an episode that you really like, that's the one you should share with someone that you know would like to listen to something fun, light entertainment, slightly stimulating, and always a great way to pass the time. We appreciate that you listen every week. And now we're gonna get started. Amy, we know sometimes humans are accused of being selfish, and that typically, if not always, is meant to imply a negative trait. If I were setting you up with someone, if that's something that you wanted me to do, and I was doing it, and I said, Okay, I've got the perfect person for you. They're tall, dark, and selfish. Oh no, you wouldn't think that was completely great.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

I probably would not.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

I looked up the definition, and it means caring only for yourself. So no surprises.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Seems self-explanatory, but it's good to know for sure that's what it means.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Something you didn't know is that the term was coined in the 1630s by the Presbyterians.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

That's true. I did not know this.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

So I was curious, I was meditating on this concept of selfishness and how it's applied and often, in my view, misapplied. Sometimes we say someone's being selfish, we actually mean they're being thoughtless. And I also want to explore different types of selfishness and maybe convince you that there's actually a good kind of selfishness. Okay, I'm here for the ride. But first, speaking of being selfish, I figured out a way you can earn over six figures right now.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Excellent. I was hoping that would be the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

This is perfect for you. So all you have to do is go to New York City and set yourself up as a dog walker. Okay. Because some of these people are getting 35 bucks per walk. And if you do it all day with a bunch, you know how they walk around like 50 dogs on at the same time. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

And you do it all day, every day, or three or four days a week, you'd kill. You'd kill.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

I actually knew somebody who was a dog walker in New York City, and I think they did uh yeah, they did a nice, a nice living for themselves. New York City style living, but it went well. I'm curious, does this relate to selfishness? Or is it just a thing you needed for me to know, and now was the time for me to know it?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

I'm not sure. The other thing to keep in mind that a lot of the fancy buildings don't let you walk through the lobby with a dog.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

How do you get the dog out of the building? Through the window?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

There's two ways. I always I've said this before, but I I don't know if you ever watched that movie Rear Window, where they lowered the dog down in a basket.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

See, out the window.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

That is something I thought would be great. Or most of these buildings have a service entrance and a service elevator, and they'll they make you use that. So you have you can never walk in the lobby with your dog. You walk in uh the service entrance and then you go up the service elevator.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

I was actually at a party over the weekend, a very a relatively small house party. And um at a certain point I ended up in a room. Um actually I was sitting alone, and um I was talking someone came in and asked me why I was sitting alone. I was like, well, there's no dogs at the party. And normally I I go to try to find the dog when I get to a party and I I run out of people energy. So I yeah, I I think totally dig.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

So you need uh you need a dog respite, you need a like a recharge with a dog before you can reface the people at the party. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Yeah, because dogs are just I don't know, dogs are kind of the best, honestly. Like they're good, they're really good, and they don't demand a lot of you. They just seem super happy that you're there, and you can say whatever awkward, weird thing, and they're just there for the conversation. And sometimes I need that mid-party.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

So I know what you're wondering. You're wondering why did I ask you to do this podcast? And I'm gonna ask you, Amy, are you selfish?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Right. Thank you for asking. Not enough people ask me.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Um it's not a question people ask typically.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

People more people should ask because it's important to know.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

I feel could you imagine like a first date? You know, are you are you selfish? I don't think people have that on their list of things that they ask people when they meet them ever.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

No, and I did hear this, and I do think this is related to selfishness directly. Somebody said recently, I watch a lot of or yeah, I guess watch a lot of TikTok, and one of the people on there said, um, on your first date, ask your date who are the most important people in their lives. And so you allow, you know, they answer and they say who, but then ask them why they're the most important people. And if it's mostly about what they do for them, then that might be something you want to pay attention to, right? So that would be a good first date question.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

I immediately went to Abe Lincoln. Really? But not for the governance or his vision or the emancipation proclamation. I I was take a lot of styling tips from his height, you just really like he's tall and he yeah, he was uh very tall, and that hat made him seem even taller.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Even taller. He was a tall, melancholy man.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

He was tall and melancholy. I don't know why any he didn't have his habitasher didn't say to him, Abe, you don't need a stovepipe hat.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

No, let's round this off. You want to get some stripes going, some horizontal striping at the top of your head will help you.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Try something. How about a beanie? Let's not make this any taller. I can't remember one nice thing you did for me. Is that right? No, wait a minute. You've done like a bajillion of these podcasts with me. So there's one. That's one big thing. You've spent hours doing this with me. Yeah. Hours.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Oh, I love it. I think I get a lot out of it though. So I think I I wonder if that's part of what we're is that part of what we're getting at? Like, is it selfless if I am also um benefiting somehow, or am I doing it just for the benefit or for the the good feelings that like you'll like me if I do the podcast?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Is that there's no way I'm going down that road. No, I think no, I think you're absolutely on it. I think it's I think selfishness is a social construct that has gotten a bad rap, and it actually doesn't have a lot of the meaning we think it does. Now, I I would never think of you as a selfish person, but let me ask you this question. So you you're you're in the you're in the supermarket, okay, and you're on a long checkout line, and you're the last person to get in the line, and there's a whole bunch of people, and everybody's, you know, writing checks, looking for green stamps, they're getting price checks, paying with pennies. You're at the end, suddenly, miraculously, a checker in the next lane opens up. Do you go for it, move over to that line, and suddenly you're checking right out, or do you invite the people who have been waiting longer than you, if any of them want to go over? What do you do in real life?

SPEAKER_02 8:41

In real life, I would move over.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, I think a lot of people would. I think, you know, part of it depends on how tired are you, what what kind of hurry are you in, what mood are you in, who's waiting on you? Do you have kids locked in a car?

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Oh my god, always. I cracked a window. I'm not a monster.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Yeah, you're an old school mom. My parents always hoped one of us would run away. That was their thinking. There, there, I think there are various variables that come into play whenever we get these things. And I think we all are confronted with these choices all day long. And sometimes we choose the so-called selfish thing, and sometimes we don't. And it just depends on a lot of things. Now, I asked you in advance to take a selfishness quiz to see how you did, and I want to guess your score. You haven't told me. That's right. But I was thinking about what I knew about you, and I was guessing your score came in around 88, which would mean that you're high on the helpfulness scale, or you're not selfish. Am I right or am I right?

SPEAKER_02 9:51

You were within two points, friend. Ooh, what did you get? I got an 86.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Wow, man. Yeah, that was so close. I'll tell you what helped me guess that. What's that? Because I got an 84. And I was really, I was actually kind of surprised. Were you surprised by your score that it was that high? A little bit. And I'll put the quiz in the show notes. I actually put it to a couple of different ones you can take. On the ones where you could kind of pick one that was a little less favorable, I tried to pick that one just to so I wouldn't overinflate my number. And I still got an 84. And it said in its little uh analysis of my score, it says, quote, you tend to bend over backwards and really go out of your way to help others, and in many cases, we'll do so without even being asked. And I said, Well, that's good, but I was a little surprised because I have been accused at various points in my life of being selfish. And um, that's what got me thinking about this whole topic, really, is it's always been something that I've kind of wondered about myself. And I actually expected to do worse on this scale, but then I started thinking about what I actually do for people. And I've done lots of things for people.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Absolutely. I think of you as very selfless, as very helpful. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Like I'm really glad to hear that. But it's funny because I also know I have many times sort of voted for myself.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

I shall insert something here. Um, and I may be uh biased by something you said earlier, but I think you're a very thoughtful person, Ross. And I think sometimes I'm wondering right now, and so I'm interested if you have an example like a story that where you think you were not helpful. Because I think some in some of those cases you're still very thoughtful, and maybe you're still self-serving some, but I think you're very you're you're thinking of the what's quote unquote best.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Well, I appreciate that compliment. I I like to think that I am, but there are times when I'm thoughtless. But to me, that's a different construct, and it's a lot less judgment laden. Okay. When you call someone selfish when they're really being thoughtless, it really puts a much more negative spin on their behavior than it deserves. And I was eating outside one time at one of these outdoor cafes, and about two blocks away, a guy uh on a motorcycle crashed into a car.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

And I j I jumped up, jumped over the little fence there, a little whatever that separates the restaurant from the world. And I ran down, and you know, I couldn't, I wasn't, I'm not a I couldn't offer any medical assistance, but I was able to talk to him and keep him uh in the game until the ambulance showed up. So I think people would look at that and say, well, that's pretty selfless, right? I have a very very similar story.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

I was having coffee, coffee with a friend, and um there was a crash behind us, a car crash. A car came through the intersection and hit a line of parked cars. And the first car that they hit had there were two passengers and their dog had just gotten into the car. And we ran down and the car was full of smoke, some smelly exhaust smoke. And we got the I got the person and gave their dog to somebody so that I could get her out. She had hit her face, hit the windshield. And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

No, yeah, so that's great. That's a good example. So that's I put that on the good side of the ledger, but that's just one example. Now on the other side of the ledger, when I was 15 years old, I became aware that there were only two, one position, not two, one position open at this place that I wanted to work. And uh one of my acquaintances, I wouldn't call him a friend so much, but he was definitely somebody I knew. Somebody I'd been to their house, but he was more like a friend of a friend. I knew that he wanted the same job, and we were both talking about it. I told him, I don't know what I said, but let's say I said, I'm gonna go at three o'clock after school or something. And he said, Okay, I'll go then too. And then I went like at lunch, and I got it.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah. That's I mean, that's that's on the bad side of the ledger. That wasn't a thing where I it wasn't thoughtless. It was like, I want this job, I and I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna be I'm gonna get there first. It was deceitful and selfish because I wanted it for myself. Did you know that we if we evolved um to be altruistic? We didn't start out that way. We figured out that we would survive better if we looked out for other members. First of all, we formed groups and then looked out for members of the group.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Was that in 1630 with the Presbyterians?

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Yes, with the Presbyterians. As everyone knows, that's when uh that's when the world started. Pretty much 1630. Nothing happened before then that I could pick of. Not much. So when we talk about selfishness, I think it implies something nefarious and evil. And we act as if it's easy to diagnose selfishness. I don't think it is. Tell me more. Well, let me start with this little salvo.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Oh, a salvo. Thank goodness. I thought there'd be no salvos.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah, well, we're starting right off with a salvo. Great. All things in nature are selfish.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

In the sense that everything alive prioritizes its own survival. I that that is uh I can agree with that statement. Speaking of dogs again, you got a dog, you got a pork chop. The pork chop's on your counter, you're gonna cook it later. Or maybe it's already cooked, but it's on the counter, clearly intended for you and you alone, and your dog steals the pork chop off the countertop. He does a little countersurfing, gets the pork chop, runs outside, and gobbles it down. My question is, is that dog being selfish?

SPEAKER_02 16:44

We don't know what the dog's thinking. We don't have the technology. So the dog is like just sees a pork chop and he's like, I see an opportunity to get something that I want.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

And that's the word.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

It's an opportunity. The dog is merely opportunistic, just like all of nature. All of nature, every living thing is opportunistic. How about that weed growing in your garden?

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Do you mean um an unwanted plant or a particular weed? Nobody likes weeds.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Oh, you mean like some sort of like smoking thing?

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Can't cannabis as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

You're such a freaking drug monkey. Am I? Would you put down a crack pipe and do a podcast for once?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

I'm just clarifying. I just need to know whether this is a question about cannabis or it's a question about dandelions, because that might be a different response. So I've got a bunch of weeds.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Growing in the garden. Would you call a weed selfish? Certainly not. It was being opportunistic. How about a rat taking a large pizza slice down a drain in New York City? Pizza rat. Pizza rat. He's just he just saw a slice and he says, might as well take this back home to the family. Rats gotta eat too. Nature, the entire ecosystem is selfish, but really what that means that are just opportunistic. So nature is opportunistic. And so I think many times we behave as humans, not weeds or rats, we are being opportunistic, which is different from being evil. So if a person is evil and opportunistic, we tend to see them as a bad person. Do you remember that movie? Uh, what was it called? Wall Street with uh Michael Douglas?

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Gordon Gecko, Greed is good, that guy. Did you ever watch that movie?

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yes, but I believe is that a movie from the 90s, perhaps?

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, or the 80s. It's old. So Gordon Gecko was opportunistic and evil. Bernie Madoff, opportunistic and evil. They're bad people.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

But you can be thoughtlessly opportunistic and not evil. So I say the dog stealing the pork chop was just doing exactly what he's programmed to do. Sure, yeah. And even if you've trained him not to countersurf, his biology, all of his wiring over the thousands of years of that dog's evolution, are all saying, dude, take the chop and live another day.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Yeah. Even if my dog is not hungry, like if my dog, if I had if I had two pork chops and I chopped up one and gave it to my dog, and then I had a second pork chop for me, and the dog's eating a whole pork chop, he would still go get another pork chop. He would make himself sick getting all the pork chops.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

I think the term selfishness is often this is my second salvo.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Okay. Salvo number two.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah, if you're keeping track. Yeah, like a salvo uh record tracker. The term selfishness is used more like a weapon to hurt people who we think let us down.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

You're just being selfish right now. Well, they let us down, or we feel that they did, and so we're calling them selfish as if that's some immutable trait that they have. When maybe, maybe they were just thoughtless, maybe they just beat you to an opportunity, maybe they just didn't adequately consider your needs. Those are things that are important for different reasons, but it may not be because they have this central characteristic of evil selfishness.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

I'm buying into that. I'm buying them with the I'm buying your salvos.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

So my thinking is that if we define this behavior more accurately, whatever the situation is, then it would be much we'd have a much more effective way to talk to people. You know, what we really want to say a lot of times, I think, is you're not you don't value my needs. You're or you're not adequately valuing what I need right now. Which is not necessarily selfishness.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Which that's right. And particularly, I think sometimes, like in the case of the dog at the pork chop, perhaps, uh, the dog's not aware of what your needs are. So if we haven't made our needs clear, which we sometimes aren't doing, it'd be pretty hard to think about our needs if we if the other person doesn't even know that's our need. Maybe they thought we didn't even want a pork chop.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Well, not only are they not aware of our needs, the dog is thinking the chop is out for them. Yeah. That's what I believe about dogs. Having spent most of my life with dogs and studied them very carefully, I'm pretty sure that their thought process is if there's food out and it's not being guarded with a gun, it must be especially. Placed for them.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

I can see my dog thinking that. This is for me. It's a present. Thanks for the pork chops. You know, maybe you didn't adequately consider the dog's need for a second pork chop. Maybe you're selfish because you wanted a pork chop. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Your pork chop hog? Yes. The dog's thing from the dog's perspective. Yeah. From the dog's POV, the dog is thinking, look at you, you selfish human, eating that entire pork chop without giving me any. That's right. You are selfish.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yeah. I thought we were on the same team. We're not on the same team. You're eating all the pork chops.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

So I think it's a point, it's definitely a point of view thing. It's like, who is evaluating this behavior and what do they think they're missing out on? Because I think a lot of times, especially with kids and we grow up calling people selfish just because they got something that we wanted.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

And it's like, oh, you're being selfish. Oh, that kid's so selfish. And it's like, yeah, maybe not. Maybe, maybe not. And it's all sort of wrapped up in not really fully understanding all the variables that are affecting everyone's behavior. And it's also not taking any ownership of your own point of view, which might be one where you're just feeling a little left out or you're feeling undervalued. And those are important feelings, but it doesn't necessarily make the other person selfish. And then as I said, later on, I think as adults, we use we throw that term around and say you're just selfish as a way of, you know, inflicting some ego damage on somebody when the reality is the conversation we ought to be having is why, you know, our needs aren't getting met. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. And if you by the way, if you're in a relationship with someone and you really believe that they have this evil selfishness that I'm talking about, the Gordon, they're the Gordon gecko of your relationship, you should get out of it.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

I was gonna say, get out. Get out now. Because that's that's not good. No. Yeah, I was gonna say you can't talk yourself out of that kind of selfishness, because that's that's not about situational. That's that's gonna that's gonna persist.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

I've been told before, specifically, one person who knew me well said, I think you're selfish because you always do what you want to do. And I said without thinking, I said, um, shouldn't everyone do that? Shouldn't we all be doing what we want to do?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

And um, I think there's a lot of people who actually don't regularly choose for the, you know, choose themselves. And I think those people tend to lead an unsatisfying life.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Well, and it must be very frustrating. I can I can imagine, and I know there are times when it's been true for me to see somebody else looking out for themselves in a way that makes their life satisfying. If you're not able to do that for yourself, like as you're saying, you sort of lash out at them, well, you're just selfish or you're self-serving or self-involved. But to your point, maybe that's the thing we want to be able to do for ourselves. And and so rather than just doing it for ourselves, we lash out at the other person and try to um attack their virtue.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah. I think it's the I think that's the good selfishness. The good, I said in the beginning, there's a good and maybe there's a bad. Sure. We know there's a bad selfishness. We talked about that, the Gordon Gecko pork chop theory. But the good selfishness, I think, is when you're actually prioritizing your own needs and your own well-being because uh almost nobody else will.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

And we've all met people who have this martyr personality who are the do-gooders of the world. Those people tend to be chronically disappointed with their friends and family. It's true. They're always doing things, they're always there, they're sitting up with sick friends, they're running the errands, they never take care of themselves, they're always thinking of someone else first, and they often are miserable. It's true. They feel cheated because no one is reciprocating with the kind of love and care that they give. And if you've ever been with somebody like that, it can be quite exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Sometimes the helping is the it's you're in, you want to be in kind of a control situation, like you can control people by quote unquote helping them.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

We could actually, I think most people could do a little bit better job of putting them, putting their needs first. And as a mom, you know that's hard to do.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

You were a single mom, raising these kids. There are plenty of times where you had to like choose, um, you you were had that choice between do I do something for me or do I do something that's best for my kids.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

I think if you asked my kids, they would pre they might possibly indicate that there were times, more times than they were comfortable with that I chose myself. I and there were times when I was probably selfish just for selfishness sake, selfishness sake, like the bad kind of selfish, but I would say the majority of the time it was probably not that. Um, or at least that's the way I like to think on it anyway. But I think the second part of all of that is modeling for them that they could also prioritize them themselves. The that I think all three of my kids were assigned female at birth, and so they're socialized as as women. And I think women can tend to, you know, uh be socialized and really emphasize that you need to put others' needs first. And I think that this is why we get sort of the nagging um unhappy wife and mother, is because they're always putting everybody else's needs first. So, yes, I think if we can start to normalize caring for yourself, um, you know, within limits, of course, that that's gonna produce a lot more happy people.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yeah, that was really well said. Thanks. I think that's absolutely right. So I think in so many times when we choose ourselves, and we're even if it's, you know, we're just taking care of our own need at that moment, we're not taking care of anyone else, we're doing something that's truly just for us, you are setting an example for people who look to you for what is appropriate behavior. And if you grow up with a parent who's constantly subordinating their needs to the other parent or other partner or some job or something, that has a long-lasting effect. And it's not necessarily a good one for kids, it's not a good environment for kids to be raised in. So I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind is like what kind of kid, if you have kids and you're constantly sacrificing for them, sure they'll tell people that sometimes. Maybe, oh, my mom or dad are always doing all these things for me. And I really appreciate it. It's really great that they've just kind of, you know, checked out of their own life and just put my life as sort of the most important thing that's happening. But I'm not sure that's a great life lesson. I borrowed the next little piece from this guy, Dan Harris, who does a podcast called 10% happier. Ooh. And I'm thinking, Dan, uh, how about a higher goal? Why only 10%? Why are we settling for 10%? But anyway.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

But if we listened to his podcast, you'd know why 10%.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Well, I'm just guessing. I I need, I mean, I need to be 10% happier, but why not 50% happier?

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Well, sure. Well, you start with 10 and you do that five times and then 50%.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

That's math.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

He claims that uh the Dalai Lama described this concept of wise selfishness. He says that we all have an inborn penchant for self-interest, and it's natural and it's nothing to be ashamed of. But at the same time, of course, you need to recognize that acting in generous and altruistic ways makes you happier too. So, wise selfishness, I guess, in his in the Dalai Lama's way of thinking means, yeah, prioritize your interests, but also at the same time, look out for the interests of others, and you'll be a super happy person then, or at least much happier than someone who's just looking out for their own interests or just looking out for someone else's interests. You like the Dalai Lama, by the way?

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Me, yes, very much.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Are you a fan?

SPEAKER_02 31:00

I'm a big fan. They said a lot of wise things in in very simple ways, so that even I can understand it.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Now, see, now there's a guy who could use a stovepipe hat. Absolutely. Because he needs a little something.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

A little up top. Well, it he probably gets chilly because he doesn't have much hair.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

He says, sit quietly, close your eyes, and call to mind a succession of people. Start with someone who's easy to love, like Amy, or a pet that has not stolen anything, like a pork chop, or a child. And then you have this mental image of that person and you silently send four kind thoughts their way. For example, may you be happy, may you be safe, may you be healthy, may you live with ease. And then he says you move on to yourself, and then someone you care about, someone you're neutral about, a difficult person, and then all beings everywhere, and you do the same thing. Wow. So it says loving kindness meditation ritual. And he says he was a little sar uh cynical about it, but he says it really helps. And the research suggests that it helps with feeling connected. And when we feel more connected to the world, we lower our depression. But it's uh essentially, he claims, a way to cultivate the capacity to care, and you get feel healthier and happier by doing it. So you start small with one to five minutes, a few days a week, and build from there until you're doing it all day. No.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Oh well. I really thought you meant that for a moment. I was like, that's time consuming, and I don't have that kind of time.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

And he says you should dedicate every day task to other people. So I'm like, what is he talking about? And so he gives a really basic example. Let's say you're brushing your teeth.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

And you think to yourself, I'm doing this so I can be strong and healthy, not just for myself, but so I can help other people in my life. So you take these mundane activities that you do thing, and just saying, hey, I'm doing this. It's good for me, but it's going to put me in a situation where I can do better. I mean, it's sort of what we were talking about with you and your kids. I mean, we were talking about how when you were making choices for yourself, so you could be a happier person or healthier, or whatever choices you were making, that had a couple of different benefits for them. It allowed you to be perhaps more present for them or have more energy for their needs, but also it set a good example of how to live your life. Even when you're a single mom with who's very, very busy.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

That's right. It's the old um oxygen mask analogy, right? So if you're in an airplane, I think I may have even used it on this podcast before. Um, yeah, if the airplane's going down, you put on your own oxygen mask first, not because it's selfish, though you do take care of yourself, but then you're able to take care of others because you can breathe.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

You are on fire. That's a perfect example. Yeah. Yeah. If you're like being a martyr person, I'll put y'all put everyone's oxygen mask on.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Um you and you end up and then you're just in the floor with nothing. No, you put your own, you oxygen mask yourself first, and then you like give it to your kid or whoever those are around you.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yeah, because otherwise you're just a bloated carcass blocking the aisle. That's right. Just people are just shoving you out of the way. And how's everybody gonna get their drink cart? That's right. I gotta get my drink cart. Where's the drink cart at? Oh, there's a person who passed out putting everybody's oxygen masks on. That's selfish bastard. That's what people would say. They would. And that goes back to my point that it's all contextual. It's like you have to look at so many variables to determine is this really selfish behavior or not? It was a person being a hero. That's right. I'm sitting on an airplane once, and there's this guy, he's just daring with a hang dog face. And I'm like, is this guy looking at me? I can't tell what he's looking at. And somebody he's riding with says, Hey, Buford, what are you looking at? And he says, and I quote, I'm sorry, I just got a bad case of the gapes. And I was like, that's the best thing I've ever heard. Oh, I got the gapes.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Oh man, I'm using that. That's going in. I'm putting a pen in that one. I got a bad case of the gapes.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

It's got a hold of me again.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

I let the gapes run away with my face again.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

That's perfect. So basically, you can look out for yourself and you can also help people at the exact same time. So if you're wondering if you're you or someone else is selfish, look at the all the factors surrounding their behavior and look at the consequences. Are they doing something that may look selfish but actually is benefiting other people? Or are they just being thoughtless? Just don't haul off and call somebody selfish without knowing more details. And especially if it's mainly driven by the fact that you feel like your needs are being ignored, that's where you need to go.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

That's what's got to be addressed because you deserve to have your needs met. You deserve to have people prioritizing your needs sometimes, especially if you're in a relationship with them.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

There's nothing wrong with you if sometimes you prioritize yourself. It's probably going to be good for other people in your life. I would think.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

The outlook is good for this because it sounds like, yeah. Go ahead, do some stuff for yourself so you'll be healthier and happier, and you're going to feel better when you do nice things for other people. Get your little helpers high and don't get the gapes.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Thank you, Amy, for talking about selfishness and doing so so generously. Oh, I think. So generous with your time. I always appreciate talking to you.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

And thank you for your generous invitation to share my generous nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

And we both got very high scores on this quiz, which I invite everyone to take. And if you end up taking the quiz and getting a higher score than 84 or 86 in Amy's case, you need to send us a message on Instagram so that we know that you're better than us.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

And that would be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

That would be helpful to us. Yeah. And it would be helpful to you because everyone would know about it. So please reach out to us and follow the show there on Instagram if you don't already, or you can send us an email. The email is in the show notes. And as always, if you can share the show with other people who think might like it, we definitely appreciate that and we appreciate you listening every week. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you're stealing a pork chop off a countertop or just someone who has a really bad case of the gate, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody. And I've been going through pillows. Like dogs go through pork chops.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

You gotta find the right pillow. It's very important, no doubt.