SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm satisfied.

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So you're you're spinning the wheel of apologies. You're like Correct.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

We are expressing regret today.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

How do you like that? And then if they nope, if they make a frowny face, then you spin it again. Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention, and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today my guest is not only a therapist, and a former roller derby star. She can make a cheesecake so good you will confess the crimes you didn't commit just to get a slice. It's Joan. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

And welcome everyone, friends. Thanks for being part of our community. Thanks for tuning in each week. We love that you hang out right here every week with us. And you can help us, as you know, by sharing the show with people that you know that you think would like it too. That is really appreciated, and we do appreciate you listening. Joan, let's get started.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

We should mention that the tests have finally come back, and you indeed are very likely my sister. Would you agree with that as a starting proposition?

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Probably.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Now, is it Joan or Jo? Joan. Okay, so you prefer Joan.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Okay. And just uh again, one other thing I want to clear up. How do you go from roller derby to therapist? Is that a sort of a normal progression? How does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I I think that it's kind of a normal trajectory. It's actually um going from one coping skill to another one. So roller derby was a coping mechanism, and now I do therapy and help people, and it's different coping.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

But you're not hitting them as much.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

It's a lot less uh contact.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

There's a lot less contact in therapy, and that's probably an ethical thing, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

At the very least.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

So we know that humans sometimes make mistakes and injure, harm, offend, wound, mistreat, misuse, ill use, or abuse someone else. And when that happens, hopefully, if we're the transgressor, we feel sorry and we apologize. Of course, if someone hurts us and doesn't apologize, that feels bad. But sometimes, even when the other person apologizes, it still feels bad. So I looked into this phenomenon, and it turns out we don't all value apologies the same way. Now we've talked on the show about love languages, but there are also apology languages. Did you know this?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

I did not know that. Well, you need to know it. Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

We're gonna talk about it. But here, I gotta ask you something else. This is slightly off topic. So I want to know about the etiquette of something. You're in a you're in a big group at a restaurant, somebody has an event, unfortunately, it's not good, but they have to go to the hospital in an ambulance. Do you stay and eat your meal or what? What's the etiquette?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

You mean if you're in their party?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

You're in the group. Let's say there's 15 people, it's a big group, one person gets hauled off on a gurney. How do you just can you eat your cheeseburgers?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

How do you just continue your meal when your friend just got dragged off in an ambulance?

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Yeah, but Okay, so what if you've already ordered?

unknown 3:56

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

You're super hungry. You ordered that patty melt.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

It just depends if there's blood involved in the event.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

So no blood, chow down. Blood, you probably ought to do what?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Probably try to stop the bleeding, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Well, no, after I'm talking about after they've been so everybody is concerned. I'm not everybody's all concerned and wringing their hands, but once the person gets hauled off, you're just there at the table. Food's cooking. I mean, the uh what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah, I don't know the answer to that one.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

What if you've already been served your food? It's sitting in front of you, it's steaming, it's a hot bowl of delicious pasta.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I just think I'd have a hard time um changing my focus, returning back to social activity after that.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Would you take how about take it with you? Maybe. Okay. So you could take it away.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Well, you wouldn't waste it.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

You could eat it in the car.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Or somewhere at home.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Okay, let's talk about apology languages. There are five of them. The idea is that such a random sidewinder. Uh this show is famous for our tangents. There are five apology languages. And the idea is that we listen for different cues to determine if an apology is satisfying to us. So if you're in a relationship with someone, it's a good thing to know how they need to hear an apology because you could be giving lots of apologies, but they don't satisfy the person. And if you're like me, I feel like that's happened a lot where I've been in relationships and I say I'm sorry, and somehow the person isn't hearing that as meaningful. So it turns out people listen for different things. And now I'm going to tell you what those things are.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yes, good. I'd like to know.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

First one is called restitution. So I call this the fix it apology. It's like I screwed up, here's what I'm gonna do to fix it. So I scratched your car and I'm gonna take it to the shop, get the estimate, pay for the repair, and bring it back to you. That's kind of restitution. I'm gonna make it right.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Sounds fair.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Yeah. So that one is some people, that's what they value. They don't really care about anything else, they just want the thing to be fixed or made right somehow, if it can be. Number two is something called planned change. And basically, the way I summarize this one is it's like telling someone this is not going to happen again, and here's how here's how you can trust that. And they have a whole plan for how they're gonna change their behavior so that they stop drinking and driving your car or whatever they're doing.

unknown 6:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

So that for some people, hearing that there's an actual plan to change the behavior is the most convincing factor in an apology. And some people in a relationship will doubt the sincerity of any apology if it's not accompanied by a desire and a concrete plan to change the behavior. It's like, I don't care that you're sorry, what are you gonna do to not do this anymore?

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Right. What are you gonna do about it?

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Stop bringing pork, pulled pork sandwiches into bed at night. Like, don't do that. I don't like that. Not because of the smell, but because of the chewing or whatever it is. Next is one that's more familiar to you, and that's expressing regret. And some people that's just wanting people to admit the guilt and shame of causing pain. So it just focuses on the emotional hurt they've caused, they express regret for it, and when people are listening for that kind of apology, they just want to hear, I'm sorry. And you've heard people say, All you gotta do is say you're sorry.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Okay, right. They don't need to hear a plan of how you're gonna not become a bum, they don't have to think about how you're gonna pay them back for being a bum because they know you can't stop being a bum. But you at least are giving them the emotional feedback they need. Number four is asking for forgiveness. So this is where you genuinely come to someone and you're sort of like, please, can you forgive me? Can you ever forgive me for being a bum? Can you ever forgive me for making chewing sounds at three o'clock in the morning in your ear while you were trying to sleep?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

While eating a pulled pork sandwich.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

It could be pulled pork, it also could be corn on the cob, which is another nighttime snack that I enjoy. Corn on the cob is the one of the more underrated foods. I in some relationships, the mate wants to hear their partner ask for forgiveness. They want assurance that they recognize the need to be forgiven. So asking for forgiveness to some people shows that you realize you've done something wrong and that you're willing to put the future of the relationship in the hands of the offended person.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

That's risky.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah, but it's like that's for some people, that's what they need to hear. They want to have that feeling like you need to be forgiven, and I'm the one that needs to be forgiving you, and you need to ask for it. Last but not least is the simple one of just accepting responsibility. So for some people, if they don't hear you say, look, I blew it, it was my fault, if they don't hear that, then they don't hear an apology. They want to hear you say, I did this, I'm to blame, I own my behavior.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah, they definitely don't want to hear it's not my fault.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

I took the quiz, supposedly tells me which apology languages I favor, but I was curious first, before I tell you that, which one do you think you like? Making restitution, plan change, expressing regret, request forgiveness, or accepting responsibility. I actually I've known you for a long time. I actually don't know what you'll say.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Um I I don't I would have to favor a combination because just one of those, any one of those by itself would not be sufficient.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

You're going combo platter.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yes. I'd like a combo platter, please, of the accepting responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

And saying saying I like to hear the words I am sorry. I did that. And you know, if it's something that is likely to happen again, then a plan for change. But if it's just a thing that happened and it was a fluke or went off, that's enough.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Okay. So what would you guess? You've known me for the first few months.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Restitution.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

That's what Why are you saying that?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Because you don't care about the details. You just want it to work right.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Just fix it.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

That is, that was my number one. I took the test twice, and even though they monkeyed with it, I'm pretty sure they monkey with the test, I came out the same order.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Was it a bonobo situation?

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Make restitution is my number one. Secondly, was plan change, which to me is very similar. Like if someone says to me, Okay, I blew it, here's what I'm gonna do about it, and here's how I'm gonna avoid it in the future, I'm good. Okay, I don't really care about forgiving them. Like, I don't care. And the last thing that I value is accepting responsibility. I don't care. We all know what happened here. It doesn't do anything for me to for to hear another person say to me, I'm I blew it, I take responsibility. For me, that's self-evident. The question is, what are you going to do about it? That's what matters to me.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yeah, I guess, you know, the the reason accepting responsibility is important or could be important is is that um if they're if the person is pretending they didn't have any responsibility in it, then yeah, how are they really gonna feel sorry for it and how are they ever gonna consider a plan of change? Right. Because people who don't say I'm responsible often don't believe they are, and they will go to great lengths to not appear to be responsible.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Right, right. No, and I understand that in all of these, all of these apology languages, I mean they're overlapping to some extent because people are gonna, when they're when they're talking about it, they're probably gonna say the words, I'm sorry. They're probably gonna say something that suggests they're responsible, but it's kind of where the emphasis is. And so when you know, so yours are um, you like to hear accepting responsibility and I'm sorry. So the next time I do something that you don't like, I will say, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

I did whatever in the blank.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

I did I stole money out of your coin sack.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

If I had one.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

When I was at your house the last time, I stole money out of your cookie jar.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

And that would work for you.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah, unless you were someone who chronically steals, and then I would want to hear how you're not gonna keep stealing from my cookie jar.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Well, I would I would I would I would be more clever if I was chronically stealing from you.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

I wouldn't always be taking it out of the cookie jar. I'm just thinking And why don't you have cookies in your cookie jar? Because frankly, that's what I want. What?

SPEAKER_01 13:59

I don't have a cookie jar.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Well, then how am I gonna steal stuff?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

You're gonna have to leave it out. Maybe you should have a coin sack.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

I was thinking about this the reason like people want evidence that you're actually sorry because people hear sorry all the time.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

People want evidence that you're actually sorry, and that's why all this other stuff comes into play.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Right. And for me, the evidence is that they're gonna do something about it, as opposed to their wringing their hands and they're I'm so sorry, I'm such a bad person. Will you please forgive me? It's like all of that feels like more manipulation. It's like, no, I just fix it. Like, what are you gonna do to fix it? If you care about me, you're gonna fix it. So I think it's interesting to think about that because I never, in all the times I've been with people, I never thought about inquiring about their apology language. And I my three last big relationships, I don't even know what their apology language was. Yeah, I I can't even guess.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I've never had that conversation with anybody, but I mean, my my method is you start with the easy thing and you work your way through that list until they're they seem satisfied.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

So you're you're spinning the wheel of apologies. You're like correct.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

We are expressing regret today.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

How do you like that? And then if they nope, if they make a frowny face, then you spin it again. And you just keep going until you hit their sweet spot. That is an interesting way to do it. You could probably combine all of these in one and just watch the person very closely.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

And as soon as they they make a happy face, then you know you've hit the one.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Do we get to talk about the apologies that aren't apologies?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Well, let's talk about some of the worst apology types. Okay.

unknown 16:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

So number one is the too brief apology, and the way that's expressed is sorry.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

My bad. With or without sarcastic emphasis. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Did it sound sarcastic?

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Sorry about it.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Sorry about it. That one is a pretty common one that you hear, very sort of uh perfunctory, and it suggests that the people are just they first of all they don't really value the injury, like sorry, and then they also just want to move on. Like, I don't want to dwell on this because I don't like it. Yeah, I don't like feeling responsible. Right. How about something called the now you see it, now you don't apology? And that's when the person says, I'm sorry, but they quickly put in the conjunction word but that's a conjunction, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Is that a conjunction? Don't ask me grammar. I I mean not ready to do grammar.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Wait a minute, isn't but a conjunction? And but they're they're conjunctions, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Let's go with it.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

I'm sorry, but and the word but cancels the apology immediately. Yes. Because then they're going to an excuse. I'm sorry I yelled at you this morning, but I'm under a lot of pressure at work, and the whole pull pork thing, and my friend was taken away in a gurney from a restaurant.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

I'm sorry that I yelled at you, but you made me mad.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Oh, that's really bad. That's the blaming. That's the blaming apology. That's a double header because the next one on my list was the blaming apology. So the the now you see it, now you don't. You get an apology, but it goes by so quickly because the person is giving an excuse. Right. And people love to give excuses for their behavior. Um, I mean, we all do. It's um it's a normal motivation, especially, and I'm gonna talk about this in a minute, when you feel like maybe you didn't do anything wrong. Oh, yeah, which is a complicating factor, but we'll get to that in a minute. So the blaming apology is number three, and that's when somebody starts with, Well, I'm sorry you feel this way. So you're ducking the apology by focusing on them and their perception. So I'm sorry if it's offending you, or if you're the kind of person who gets offended by this, it's like saying there's something wrong with you, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

And they're and the person apologizing, apologizing is not really responsible. It's sort of like your sensitivity is making this an issue.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Right. It's not really an apology at all, is it?

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Sometimes you shouldn't apologize. I think that's another thing. Again, it's slightly controversial, but I just think sometimes if you really don't feel an apology is owed, I don't think you should give one just because the world is pressuring you, just because people are saying you need to apologize. There is another one that I also don't like that's on the list of worst apologies. This is the self-effacing apology where the person says they're sorry, but then they go into this whole litany of characteristics that they have that make them a weak and victim type person. Like, I'm such a screw up, I just never gonna be able to do anything right. Oh, I'm hopeless. Feel sorry for me. Yes, because then the person that was actually the aggrieved party feels a need to take care of the person apologizing. Oh, you poor thing. I'm sorry that you had to apologize and humble yourself. Yeah, it's a real trick, right? People are tricky, that self-effacing apology. Yeah, it can be exhausting dealing with someone like that. And because they go over the top often.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Well, it's an a way of saying I'm not responsible because I can't possibly be responsible for anything because I'm too weak. I'm too weak. I mean, that's like the baby or the baby apology.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

The baby apology. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Like I'm a baby, I can't do anything for someone.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Oh man, what if someone's in a relationship with a baby? Uh someone who not not an actual baby. Well, I mean, if you're a mom or dad, yeah, yeah. That's different. You you do hopefully have a relationship with your baby. If it's yours, if you haven't like swiped it.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

That's not what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

But even if you swipe the baby, you probably have some kind of relationship of some kind, you know, you're on some kind of you know, um schedule of interaction. But going back to someone who is acting so grown person, this is where I'm going with this. You're a grown person acting like a baby when you're apologizing. What do you do with somebody like that?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

I was just sort of thinking, welcome to my world with most of the relationships I've been in. Is there um an apology there that you make just because you feel like you have to, even though you didn't do anything wrong? Like you're apologizing for existing.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

I don't know what you mean.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Um, because you know, women say sorry all of the time. Oh wow and it's automatic. It's actually something I fight to not do because it's totally misplaced most of the time. But um, we are trained to excuse ourselves and make ourselves small and to get out of the way so we don't get murdered, basically. And you know that sounds pretty extreme, but it's actually true. It's a shortcut to that was there's a lot more words that could be said in between those two. But um yeah, just saying sorry all of the time. Oh sorry, um, instead of uh excuse me, we say sorry.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Wow, you know, I've never noticed that. I have read about that, but I've never noticed it before. But now that I've been tuned into it, I can watch for it. And where does this train? training come from? Like who was training you to do this?

SPEAKER_01 22:03

It's society. It's our culture and society. And it's also just based on on human instincts. Like women are, you know, forever since the dawn of time, since we've existed, have been smaller and uh weaker than um men for the most part and have had to come up with a lot of creative ways to stay alive. And in um and so it makes for a lot of um instinctive behavior that some women aren't even aware of doing. And I think that um I noticed it when I was in a um corresponding with somebody by email. Actually you were the other correspondent and when I wrote I would spend a lot of time crafting because I was asking for something that they didn't want to do. So I would spend a lot of time crafting the email and making sure it was very polite and saying I realize this is an inconvenience and all of this stuff. And then you would send a note to the same person and it would just say do it love Ross. There was love in there or something like that. And so I realized that um I was wasting my time because the person responded the same way to you that they did to me.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

And it didn't matter that I was putting all of this making it easier for them I thought. So it was my way of sort of saying I'm sorry that I have to ask you to do something you don't want to do.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah. So that sucks. Pretty much we'll put that on the list of things that suck about being a woman that you're trained that way. But the other thing I learned is that it's society's fault and I'm off the hook.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

You're off the hook.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Boom I mean I don't remember ever requiring you to say sorry and I don't remember ever you saying that to me and that one is number that's ex no that one's just the words I'm sorry. That's expressing regret. You never express regret to me.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

No.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Because you don't have any regret.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

No.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

You just do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Other other women might blame men but I I really do blame it's more on the way that we're all raised and yeah I mean we're trained.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

We're all part of it but clearly uh you know in a patriarchal society it's fair to blame men but we're all sort of supporting a system all the time we're participating in it.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yeah and we do too women participate in that system too.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

And so a lot of things are done reflexively without thinking about it and that's what that's interesting. So the last one on this list is uh similar to that one but it just when a person repeats I'm sorry too many times like I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry and so apologizing once or twice is okay but if you keep doing it it's the this article was suggesting it actually erases the apology and again it shifts the the concern away from the aggrieved person back to the person who's apologizing because they seem like they're about to lose their their wig like their their brain is slipping off the pan you know like whoa wow are you okay because you're like saying I'm sorry too much.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I mean that's a panic apology and when I hear that I think something happened a lot worse than what I think happened.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

What what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Well I mean if something happened and they and I say hey this happened and they the other person starts going into a panic apology and saying I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry. Yeah I imagine that whatever it was I thought happened is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Oh because why are they freaking out those are some of the bad ones but I was I I thought of my own my this I would put this on the list.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

And this is the no apology apology it's when the person and this just happened to me so I was with somebody they did something I sat down with them pointed it out and they did not say I'm sorry they said oh yeah I guess I did that I guess I was in a bad mood so they're not denying that they did it but there's no there doesn't seem to be any concern about the effect it's had on me.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

It's more like oh yeah that happened yeah right well you said you didn't care about people taking responsibility so but there was nothing there.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

There's nothing in it. So there was no restitution there was no plan to fix it. There was no expressing a regret there was no nothing there was not even a bad like like oh I'm such a screw up I'm yeah I took that $20 bill out of your wallet without your knowing take it or leave it.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

That's me.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Is that where the money is because I with so it's not in the cookie jar. You don't even have a cookie jar and you don't have cookies but the money is in your wallet. Cash money. And what about those people still writing checks? Those people need to go away don't write a check I don't want to ever write a check at the grocery store. Anywhere I don't want to see a checkbook come out right yeah it sounds so old fashioned write a check look all I want is people scanning my eyeballs and that's all I want to do I don't want any checks I don't want to carry cash I don't want to carry a wallet nope I don't want to have credit cards I don't want to have any passwords. I don't want anything I just want to have to have my own eyeballs there was a time where I would have been concerned about my privacy but now it's too late I just can't do any of the transactions anymore. And a lot of them are really streamlined like you do something and boom boom and they're like we're good you don't have to do anything we've got you and then still there are people like making you sign receipts what's up with that like who what nobody cares if you sign anything they've already got your money they ran your numbers they're that they don't care you think there's somebody sitting in a booth somewhere in Cleveland looking at receipt signatures and comparing them to something that's not even happening.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah why do they do that?

SPEAKER_02 28:15

They don't even make computers do that stuff anymore like they try to get computers to do that and the computers go like I don't think so I'm taking over the world bitch.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Anyway so that apology that you talked about is sort of a yes I did that and oh well that's who I am yeah it's kind of like deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yes very much and so it doesn't feel good nope all of these mistakes um are problems if you're if you're not if you're if you're not doing a good apology you're not repairing your relationships because the other person's gonna feel discounted they're gonna feel undervalued it might even make them more upset they don't feel like they're being acknowledged they don't feel like they're being seen and that the apology is somehow all about the person who actually did the injury so now let's talk about how to apologize when you mean it all of this information will be in the show notes and you can read about this your own self. Here are some suggestions that experts say that you need to do this helps. First of all if you're listening to the first part of this podcast and if you weren't that's weird that you're listening to this part because how how does that happen? But at any rate you're if you once you know what the apology language is for the person you care about and if it's somebody you don't really know then this also applies you should apologize as soon as possible because the longer you wait the more resentment builds up in the person who feels like they were injured. Start with the word I instead of you you made me you made me angry you made me do it so I'm sorry you made me angry this is what you get and I'm sorry that that's what you get specifically mention the actions you regret you regret. So you're you let them know that you know what the problem is acknowledge the impact it seems to have had on the other person or the impact it has had and you describe your plan to do something different next time so it won't happen again. Here's an example that was listed in this article by an expert. I'm so sorry I canceled our plans at the last minute I know you put a lot of effort into those plans and it must have been very annoying to have me spoil them.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

How about if I take you out for dinner tomorrow my treat what do you think about that um it sounds like an expert on apologies wrote that and no one talks like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Not only does no one talk like that my issue is it seems so thoughtful that it sounds like the whole thing was premeditated. Like I know all this was bullshit and I know that you were going to hate it and I know how much time you've put into this and I did it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Boom. Well it's kind of like that apology you just talked about except for they added they sweetened it a little by saying I'll take you I'll make it better by giving you something.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah and I don't want to go out to dinner with somebody who did all this other junk that they just laid out like I'm sorry I stole your baby how about I take you out for an ice cream cone no I don't want to how about jail time sometimes though I think you know if you know an apology is required but you're angry you're angry about the interaction too for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

So sometimes I think it's better to hold off on apologizing until I have like my my emotions in check.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Hold on to that because I'm gonna come to that in a hot second because I've thought about that one because I find myself in that situation a lot. I have had to apologize more than most people you know my whole life it's not an embarrassment for me to have to apologize. I feel like if I've done something wrong I just have to face the music and apologize for it. And that is that's the advantage of being a miscreant is that you get used to apologizing and it becomes easier and easier to say oh yeah I screwed up but not like I'm a bad person. It's just like oh yeah I get it. Like this was not good and you need to hear it and um so here it is. Okay so here remember dear Abby oh yeah was that a real person? Yes so dear Abby was like a person who had an advice column and people would write in questions like Dear Abby what do I do? And the questions were always pretty mundane things. It's like Dan Savage only different so dear Abby once offered a useful guideline about apologies. The person who is least wrong should apologize first now the thinking behind that is if you apologize first maybe the other person will apologize to you but even if you're the only one to apologize at least you'll know that you did what you could to try to repair the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Okay what do you think about that dear Abby I guess that it would be hard to decide who was most wrong. Oh I can always I always know who's well I mean I know it's always the other person but I think this is a bad strategy. It just doesn't it doesn't sound reasonable or realistic.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

I think it's I think it's going to be mostly disappointing because if you feel you you participated in a problem but you were the least wrong and you're right let's say you're right let's say you don't have a distorted view on this you're actually right you really didn't do much wrong maybe nothing wrong and you say you're sorry first you're asking for that person not to say they're sorry back. Because a lot of the times those people are exactly the kind of people who want that kind of power over you and once they see you are like oh you're gonna say you're sorry? Yeah let's make this your fault. I think it's a bad strategy. I think dear Abby no good on this one. What about situations where you're not convinced you did the thing that you're being accused of so a person's mad they say you did this and they're obviously mad they're obviously upset or they're obviously hurt but you're thinking about the interaction and and you're like it's one of those times where hey I didn't even it's not that you didn't even mean to do it. It's like you didn't do it. What they say is happening is so different from what actually happened. Yeah. So you so on the one hand you know you have to you know that they're expecting an apology but on the other hand you feel like their their point of view is really warped on this.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

So I have a I have an idea for what you do but I want to know what you think.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Uh that's a hard one.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Because you're a roller derby therapist. That's what it says in your card.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

What I would do there is depending on the relationship if I like the relationship and it's otherwise got lots of value then I will apologize for the thing even though I don't think I did it because obviously they're mad about something and they want to be apologized to.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

You're taking one for the team.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Well maybe I mean I just think it's not that important um to be right in that circumstance I get that sort of valuing the relationship over the interaction whatever it was. I get that well I probably would in that case want to talk about it a little more that's okay that so this is my strategy.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Okay. So when I'm in that situation and I've actually used this I say I'm sorry because I I'm the situation calls for an I'm sorry. So I say I'm sorry I caused you pain or I hurt I hurt you. But then I say I really need to think about this. So give me some time but can we talk about this later? Yeah that's a good I just want you to know now that I'm sorry but I really need to think about it. And I use that I really need to think about it a lot when people are mad at me because sometimes the feedback does not I don't understand it. Like I actually don't get it. And when I think about it sometimes it's like oh yeah I kind of get their point of view. But sometimes I'm like I don't know where this is coming from like I actually didn't do that. You know I didn't do the thing there you know I didn't say those things and so I need to talk to them about it. So they get the apology they get they I let them know that my plan is to reflect on it and then I want to talk to them about it when the things I don't say when things are cooled off but that's the effect is like let's talk later in a day or two and then we can tee this up and then I do it's like hey you know to the extent that they're willing to do it you know if it's someone I have a relationship with I say let's let's talk about what happened and see if we can yeah like let's see if you know come to an understanding. I want to understand how this worked and really so you know that so because I don't want it to happen again. I don't want the person to feel bad. I want to thank you Joe Joan for uh joining us today. That was very helpful to have you and um I want to thank everyone else for joining us for this episode. If you like what we're doing please share the show it's the number one thing you can do to help us you can also reach out to us on Instagram people message us there all the time and we love interacting with you. It's the only thing that keeps us going because no one is really paying us to do this. Believe it or not. And we also would love to hear from you on email the email is in the show notes and as you know if you're a regular listener if you give us a five star review on Apple Podcast uh and make it a sparkling review we will read it right here on the show and you will hear yourself become as famous as you ever thought you would be. So thanks so much for doing that and again thank you so much for listening and we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are apologizing for a bad apology or just someone eating a pulled pork sandwich in bed it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye everybody