Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ME IF I DON'T EXACTLY LIKE MY ENTIRE FAMILY?
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Tracey the therapist gives Ross the straight dope on family estrangement. Tangents include: Elevator clowns; wooing; generational trauma; small books; family systems.
Notes:
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
Get your hands off the door.
SPEAKER_01Clown.
SPEAKER_00Your job, clown. When the elevator door opens, just go out. That's all you gotta do. Don't hold anything.
SPEAKER_01No one needs you to do that.
SPEAKER_00Don't be working to be the hero, Ross. Put your hands in your pockets, hero clown.
SPEAKER_01Not everybody's comfortable with that in an elevator.
SPEAKER_00What?
SPEAKER_01Hands in pockets.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today, my guest is an excellent scrabble player who did hard time in New Jersey and can paint her whole kitchen before you can say the whole kitchen. It's Tracy. Oh. Hi Tracy.
SPEAKER_01Nice introduction. Thanks for having me again. I'm excited, Robert.
SPEAKER_00I'm really glad you're here and welcome everyone. Friends, please help us grow our little community. You do that by sharing one of your favorite shows. I think we might have a hundred different episodes now. Wow. Can you believe it?
SPEAKER_01That's exciting.
SPEAKER_00Imagine going to a buffet and there were a hundred different things that you could choose from. That's what our show has become. And so probably there's an episode that you really like. But whatever your favorite is, if you have one, share that one with somebody you think might like it. That helps us grow, and that's what we're trying to do. There are other ways you can help us, and we'll talk about that at the end. But please know that we are so glad you're here. We're delighted you're part of our team. Team Smells. That's not it. That's not. We're workshopping it. But we are glad to have you and glad to entertain you each week. Now, Tracy, we know that some humans don't always get along with some or all of their family. Ever hear about this?
SPEAKER_01I've heard of it. I've heard of it. In fact, I think it's rather relatively common.
SPEAKER_00As a therapist, which you do, that's your day job.
SPEAKER_01It is, it is.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes your night job. Do you ever help people with problems with their family? Does that ever come up?
SPEAKER_01It uh most sessions, yes.
SPEAKER_00Some level it comes up.
SPEAKER_01Every session.
SPEAKER_00What percentage of people, and I don't want you to disclose any personal, private, confidential information. We will want a list of names.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00But what percentage of people that you see on average have some type of issue related to family?
SPEAKER_01100%. And I I'm not just saying that. That's that I that's just abs yes.
SPEAKER_00Now, is that because you're only taking those kinds of clients, or that everybody just brings them up?
SPEAKER_01That's the human experience.
SPEAKER_00Wow. A lot of us really, really want to get along with our families. Like we really want to.
SPEAKER_01Well, we are biologically designed to have a need for that as children to survive. We gotta survive. Um, continue until the our last day.
SPEAKER_00You go home for a family holiday. You have the best of intentions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You're looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00You think that maybe this will be the time where things will be now. It's gonna be different this time. You walk in the door, you're in the house five minutes, and somebody makes a crack about your appearance, yeah, your hair, your tattoo.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Someone says something weird politically, they talk about your job, someone's washing their feet at the table. I don't know what's happening. They're chewing with their mouth open, and then you realize you can't stand your freaking family.
SPEAKER_01And you feel like you're back in your 16-year-old body again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, is there something the matter with you if you just don't really like your family? That's what I want to know.
SPEAKER_01No, nothing at all.
SPEAKER_00You know, every once in a while I talk to somebody who describes the perfect utopian family situation where they sit around and chat at the dinner table and everybody's super supportive, and everybody feels loved.
SPEAKER_01Do they?
SPEAKER_00Well, they say they do. They send out those holiday cards that have everything that everyone's that long type letter saying all the cool things that they've done, all the accomplishments, all the great things. I've never been able to send one of those letters because I would have pictures of me like eating cold pizza over the sink like a rat. This is what I did on Christmas.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but here's the thing about those letters all those things are true, and there's other messy stuff. Every single family has messy stuff.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, that's encouraging in a way. Yeah, I mean it's not unusual to have something going on with the family.
SPEAKER_01Well, it would be unusual not to. Like it's impossible not to. Every single family has something because humans are imperfect.
SPEAKER_00More than half of Americans, according to a recent poll, have had a falling out with a close family member at some point in their lives. More than half have had a falling out. 39% of Americans who had a falling out with a close relative say they've had a falling out that was never really reconciled. Yeah, those are a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01Those are really painful.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, most Americans have had some kind of experience with this. And the ones that have had that experience, according to this poll, tend to think it's the other person's fault that it's like that. It's dad's fault, it's mom's fault, it's sister's fault. Yeah. It's weird Uncle Joe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Relative, it's that aunt with the wooden leg.
SPEAKER_01And it could be her.
SPEAKER_00But even though most people, according to this poll, blame the other party, few are happy that it's happened. Right. They're not, they don't feel good about it.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_00They feel sadness, they feel anger, some feel embarrassed about it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00My feeling is when I would go home, uh, I would I would be that kid who would have the high expectations.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And when it didn't go well, and it almost never did, yeah. I would feel bad after saying like like not so much that it was my fault, but it's just like, why does it why can't it just go better? Yeah. When it couldn't have gone a little better.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Why does it have to always crash and bright? Right. But by the end of it, I just want to get the hell out.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So we have these expectations about family that I think are interesting. But the fact that we end up in a particular family is pretty random.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So let me just talk about my randomness.
SPEAKER_04Go ahead. If you will.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So my father was the son of a butcher from New York. His dad came over, my father's dad, my grandfather, came over on a boat from Italy, super poor. So my dad grows up in a small town in New York, butcher's son. He goes to college somehow. And he goes on a blind double blind date. And whoever he's with, he doesn't really whoever he got matched up with, he's not crazy about. But the other person, the other guy he went out with, his date, he's very interested in her. And so he ends up calling her and then wooing people back when people used to woo.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Do you remember the wooing?
SPEAKER_01I don't know about it, but I've heard of it.
SPEAKER_00People would woo.
SPEAKER_01There was wooing.
SPEAKER_00I don't think people woo anymore.
SPEAKER_01I don't think they woo anymore at all.
SPEAKER_00Did they court?
SPEAKER_01No. Oh, courting went out in 1820 something.
SPEAKER_00Right. And there's no more calling cards.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00You leave a calling card with someone you were about to woo.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You would leave the card before the woo started and the courting.
SPEAKER_04Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00You would leave the card like, here I'm interested.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then let the wooing commence.
SPEAKER_01Oh. Oof. That's heavy on the woo.
SPEAKER_00Now there's no wooing. What do people do now?
SPEAKER_01Well, they they just text.
SPEAKER_00They just text. You can't woo and text. It's hard. It's hard. And a lot of stuff gets misinterpreted.
SPEAKER_01So you need a lot of emojis.
SPEAKER_00I have no problem with emojis, but I do often need to look them up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01I don't want to get it wrong.
SPEAKER_00I'm yeah, I want to make sure I'm am I being wooed or courted?
SPEAKER_04Or do I owe money to somebody?
SPEAKER_00I just need to know. So they meet on this double blind date. They both happen to go to school in Massachusetts, but she was not from New York. She was from Georgia and she was a rich kid. Yeah. So she was, you know, upper class kid. They meet on this double blind date. My grandmother on my mother's side was totally against this whole marriage.
SPEAKER_01It's not the match for her daughter.
SPEAKER_00No, no. An Italian kid from New York?
SPEAKER_01No way.
SPEAKER_00Butcher's son? No. No, this is not part of her plan. So they elope. They elope. And those all those genes, those Georgia jeans, those New York jeans, those Italians, all those meatball jeans get all mixed together and they squeeze out seven kids. Mainly it's my mother who did that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like it's a bunch of random things that we're going to do. Here's what I'll interrupt together though.
SPEAKER_01Here's what I'll interrupt. The the them being at the same school and being on that date was random. Them choosing each other was not at all random.
SPEAKER_00What do you mean?
SPEAKER_01Because we choose partners who feel familiar to our patterns. So the meeting up is random. Then and our genetic soup that kicks out the next generation, random. And you being born into that family, random. But your parents coming together and deciding to be together, not at all random at all.
SPEAKER_00Are you saying that they're the that they are looking for certain characteristics that they find attractive in another person? And when they see that, it's not random because that's what they're looking for?
SPEAKER_01It's not so much what they're looking for, it's what feels comfortable.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So emotionally.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01So their families clearly had some things where the puzzle pieces of their two families that they grew up in, when they met on that blind date, they were like, oh, that feels familiar and comfortable. Not necessarily healthy, just familiar and comfortable.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01So then those two, you know, emotional attachment systems would find each other, find that familiarity, and be like, oh, that's what love and connection and comfort feels like. That feels like home. I'll choose that person and then we'll go ahead and play out the families we grew up in before together and you know, um, play that out. And that's where generational trauma comes in, unless we interrupt it.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So so some of this is would you say predetermined and not random in the sense that you know predictable. Predictable. And then what do you mean by generational trauma?
SPEAKER_01Well, the trauma, the experiences that they had in their two families growing up, your parents or any people, that were not so healthy.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Is trauma. We all have trauma, every last one of us, whether it's big T trauma, which is the stuff that we can point to and say, hey, that was traumatic, versus just the like little paper cuts of life that hurt us along the way.
SPEAKER_00How about Derek, our engineer? He seems like he's pretty balanced and healthy. Are you saying that Derek's got some generational trauma?
SPEAKER_01I am.
SPEAKER_00All right. I'll give him a wider birth.
SPEAKER_01Every last one of us, right? So even if we look at our families and say, I had a pretty good growing up experience. I love my parents. I feel supported, like one of those families. We can say, yes, and your parents were imperfect. So there were things they missed. They probably had an imperfect relationship. They because every single one does. So, you know, to one degree or another, that's more or less gonna get in our way. But your parents, whatever that was, had pieces in their families growing up that led them to be attracted to a person like each other.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. Yeah, that's a really good thought to mull on, and I will mull on it. I don't know if it changes see my conclusion was, although I do like what you just said, my conclusion was that these expectations that we have of a per like a perfect family are unrealistic given the way they're formed. Yes. And you wouldn't have that same expectation in almost any other group. Correct. Like at school, you don't get along with everybody at school.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Uh your sports team, you don't like everybody in your sports team, your knitting club, you don't like all the people in your knitting club. Right. You know, it's like, you know, you ever get on a crowded elevator?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's how it feels sometimes when you're in a family. It's like, I don't know who all these suckers are.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And some of them are bugging the crap out of me just by breathing the same elevator air.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00By the way.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Do you have good elevator behavior?
SPEAKER_01I like to think so.
SPEAKER_00What do you do when you get on an elevator with a bunch of strangers? Do you just stick to yourself? Do you look at your phone? Do you like pretend you're looking at the the the uh floors change, you know? Oh, an hour in 10, now we're gonna be.
SPEAKER_01I try and read the room.
SPEAKER_00Read the room, see what they need.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Are you are you bringing like you bring in a little comedy? Are you doing some problem solving?
SPEAKER_01I think I'm just noticing like, oh, does this person seem comfortable and want to make eye contact to make everybody feel more comfortable? Or does this person want to not make eye contact and keep a lot of distance to feel comfortable? So I think I'm trying to read that. And then I'm also trying to read like my own comfort and safety in the elevator.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Do you often feel comfortable and safe?
SPEAKER_01Or it depends on who's in the elevator with me.
SPEAKER_00But let's say I was in the elevator with you. Don't answer that. So for a lot of people, being in an elevator is very stressful socially because what do you do?
SPEAKER_01What if you just didn't have to do anything? But man, that's uncomfortable for us people.
SPEAKER_00So what I like to do is I like to say things.
SPEAKER_01Of course you do.
SPEAKER_00Because I feel like people need to be entertained everywhere they go.
SPEAKER_04I see.
SPEAKER_00My favorite thing that I still say to this day, especially when it's really crowded.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I say my therapist said it would be good for me to ride crowded elevators to help me with my rage. I will say that. Sometimes I will say, if it's only like one or two people, and if I'm on there first, I'll say, you know what's really weird? I was in a different building and I pressed two of the buttons at once, and the elevator went sideways. And now I'm in this building.
SPEAKER_01Oh, the more I get to know you, the more I so want to be a fly on the wall in your family when you were like 10.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, really any age.
SPEAKER_01There were a lot of entertainment value there.
SPEAKER_00There was a lot of things. I was always working the room. But I do actually do that on elevators. I really think riding an elevator is some of the best audiences I've ever had because they can't get away. And I can't just let it like slide. Just try to entertain them. I will tell you, there's some behavior on elevators that does kind of stick in my craw.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_00They still have craws.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, if you feel like you have one, that things get stuck in.
SPEAKER_00I don't like it when you're you're at your floor, so it's a crowd of people, the door opens, everybody's got to get her out, get out, right? And then the people waiting to get on, they just start coming on.
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, that's just that's just bad manners.
SPEAKER_00No, it's like, how do you think this is gonna work? Like, how can we get how can you get on until we get off?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Why are you walking toward us?
SPEAKER_01They're very anxious.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you think?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_00They're anxious. What they think they're gonna miss it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've done this before. So I'm in a hotel. Yeah, I'm in the lobby, I get on, and the doors start to close, and I yell out into the lobby. Hold the lobby, please! Done that. All right. The other thing is the person, okay, they're getting off. Yeah. So they come out. You get on. Right. They're holding the door with their arm as a polite thing, but they just keep holding it and delaying the cycle.
SPEAKER_01Yes. They are also anxious.
SPEAKER_00They're delaying the freaking cycle because the elevator has a certain time that it has to stay open before it closes. And with your hand there, you're making it longer for all of us. And you don't need to hold the door. Now, if the door's closing on me, you know, if it's about to squeeze my head like a Safeway Melon, yes, please.
SPEAKER_01What were you like at 18?
SPEAKER_00Uh I was very um manic.
SPEAKER_01So surprising.
SPEAKER_00I had a lot of energy, but it was not directed toward anything good. That's why I barely made it out of high school. Seriously, it was touch and go. My father had to go down and beg them to let me out of high school. And they were like, Yeah, I guess we don't really want him. No.
SPEAKER_01They didn't want you for another year.
SPEAKER_00They didn't want my dad either. They didn't want either one of us. It was a package deal. Both of you beat it. So if we took four or five of those people out of the elevator randomly and stuck them in a house, sounds like a reality show. Uh, we wouldn't expect them all to get along. That's my whole point. It's like, but we but so in every other there's a long way to go for this point. Very long way. I apologize for all of it. But we have these very high expectations for our family.
SPEAKER_01Do you want to know why?
SPEAKER_00But we don't have it in other situations. Why? Why? Why I can answer this. Okay, I'm ready.
SPEAKER_01So as children, we are wired to believe that anything. So we need our parent, our parents to survive in the world. Okay, we put them on a pedestal.
SPEAKER_02Right. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_01We decide that if something they're doing feels wrong, that it can't possibly be them. It must be us. So we decide that it's our fault and it's our problem. So we turn it around and make it our fault and our problem.
SPEAKER_00Wait, when things aren't going well, we blame ourselves?
SPEAKER_01Yes, children always do.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Right. That's part of the deal.
SPEAKER_00They do that because survival.
SPEAKER_01Because they have to have their parent be in a good light.
SPEAKER_00Oh, the parent can't be a goon.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So because then they're doomed.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00That has to be them. Exactly. At least they still have a chance to eat and survive. Exactly. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_01So then as we grow, there's this um friction inside of us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And even as adults, there's that kid inside of us that wants so badly to be able to fix the parent to be good. Right. And so we turn it around and make it our problem. So now we've got the kid inside us and the fully formed adult that are both that are arguing with each other when we're at home because we're back in that family system of, especially if you have siblings and you're all there, you're all playing the role as the child, pulling at the parent to be different things. You all need the parent to be something else. So you're all performing in a certain way to try and get the parent to act in a certain way so that you feel loved, that you belong, that you're okay, that you're good enough. And all the siblings are trying to do the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01But then they're also trying not to do it because the adult in them is like, well, that's dumb. I shouldn't have to do that. Right. And the kid inside is like, oh yes, you do.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Because the parent can't be bad. So then that family system is playing out that whole way. And none of that can change unless everyone decides to change it. And that's just not going to happen.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's fascinating. So that explains. So when I was younger and I would go home and I had changed, I felt like I had changed the person. And now I was this way, and this is I have a different belief system and this and that. And you get home and quickly everybody's trying to push you back to where you were.
SPEAKER_01And then next thing you know, you are.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, it works. Yes. And you find like by the end of the visit, it could only be like two days. And at the end of it, you're leaving and you're like 14 years old again. Because everybody's pushed you back to where you were. Exactly. And you that's one of the things that feels bad.
SPEAKER_01It's like I didn't even like I wasn't the person I wanted to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's not who I am with my other friends and my other, you know, social situations now. But in my family, I just get they and they're and they're very fast. Everybody seems like they're working overtime, yes. Get everybody to play their part.
SPEAKER_01And that's family systems theory.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Along with parts work. And yeah.
SPEAKER_00If you were interested, I'm fascinated by family systems. Yeah. Growing growing up in a big family has just always been appealing to me as an area. But if you were gonna, if you wanted someone, if you wanted to recommend something for somebody to read that wouldn't be too jargony That would just be kind of informative about family systems. Can you think of any?
SPEAKER_01There are some things I really like. There's a really great book called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. Okay. It's great. It's small, it's paperback, um, and it's really a wonderful read.
SPEAKER_00It's small? Yeah. How small are we talking?
SPEAKER_01Uh you know, like two by three centimeters or so.
SPEAKER_00It's very small. You got to have a microscope. A microscope. Microscope, yes. You have to have a microscope. It's small. It's very small.
SPEAKER_01Tell you how small it is. Just a few centimeters by a few centimeters. But it's um it's really great. It's short, you mean it's short, is what I do mean. It's short and small. I shouldn't try to explain to you what you mean. You meant small. It's a short book. It's a s it's a small book.
SPEAKER_00It's a very approachable book. It's a friendly book. You can approach it. It's small. You can bully this book. You can push this book around. I'm sorry. I'm excited about the small book.
SPEAKER_01So that's good. And then there's also parts work, which is internal family systems, which is the different stuff.
SPEAKER_00And um is that the name of a book? Parts work?
SPEAKER_01Well, there's one called No Bad Parts, which is really good about parts work. And then you can just Google family systems theory. Like there's so much out there on that.
SPEAKER_00Um It's really fascinating. What I found particularly compelling about it is just the way that my brain works, because I like to think of uh multi-dimensional systems in in everything. Like I just like to frame problems that way. Whatever size your family is, you know, people are trying to keep it in balance.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Even if it's terrible, horribly dysfunctional.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_00But everybody is working overtime to keep it in the same system. Keep it in balance because at least there's comfort there. Yeah. There's familiarity.
SPEAKER_01Everybody knows what to do.
SPEAKER_00There's predictability. So you know dad's gonna say something cutting about you, mom's not gonna support you, brother is going to be uninvolved and emotionally unavailable or whatever. Yeah, and that's all gonna happen and everybody's gonna feel bad, uh-huh. But at least we know it's like watching a bad movie. It's comfortable discomfort, it's comfortable discomfort, exactly. And we play this out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the other thing that was really appealing to me as an idea is that if you go in there with big plans to disrupt the system, people are gonna work even harder to shut you down. Yes. So the more you come in with a changed uh uh agenda, like I'm now this new person and I don't do these things. People work overtime to try to put you back in your role, to try to stop it. Yes, and that knowing that was happening was very um empowering for me. Yes, it is because it helps you then start taking on some agency.
SPEAKER_01It does.
SPEAKER_00Because then you can say, okay, so first of all, this isn't gonna happen overnight. And it may not happen at all, and it may never happen, but you are in control of your part of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What I talk to clients about, I'm like, you know, because we talk especially we're, you know, over the holidays or your family or different things. I talk a lot about what if you sit back and watch the show.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Don't try and change anything.
SPEAKER_02Watch the show.
SPEAKER_01Notice, watch the show, see the humor, like watch it like you would watch one of those horrible dysfunctional family holiday movies.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. And you're like, oh, I see dad doing the oh, there's my yep, this is predictable. Oh, I know, I know this so well. And I can still love these people within the dysfunction. Wow, that would be hard to do, but that would be an interesting It's a real practice to sit back and just have some emotional distance from it and to also observe what happens inside you when you're pulled to do your part. You're like, oh, what if I didn't? What would happen?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01What if I did what happens?
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01And to be able to sit back and be more observational of it instead of judgmental of it, particularly of the self. Because we feel, you know, the child feels hurt and scared that, you know, we still need to perform a certain way for mom or dad to accept us. And if we don't perform that way, because the same way there's the um family systems on the outside, there's also the internal family systems inside us that has all these parts of us. That's the no bad parts book. And all those parts are trying to keep the system working the same too.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01So when the adult, more evolved part of you on the inside is trying to show up differently, the child inside you is pulling you to act the same way you used to, because the child inside you is scared that if you act differently, you will be kicked out of that system and not feel like you belong.
SPEAKER_00Right. Which it could actually be the best thing that could ever happen.
SPEAKER_01It could. And yet we like you were talking about like if you're in a group with an people in an elevator, you don't you don't expect them or have such a desire for them to include you. No. But in your family, you're like, well, I don't want to be the one that's left out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I want to be, I want to feel valued and appreciated. And what was interesting in um my I feel like my own uh family, my childhood family is a was a great incubator for a lot of these topics.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we were raised pretty much as lone wolves in our family. So we had all these kids, but we were all like every person for themselves, because that's how my parents liked it, because they knew if we ever figured out that we could form a team and wipe them out, kill them with golf pencils and stuff, you know, choke them out or something, that we'd be unstoppable. So they they divided and conquered.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_00So we everybody was on an island. But later on as adults, we had uh a crisis that we had to deal with collectively, and we had to learn who each other was as a grown person.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We learned as we worked more and more together that oh, we're all individual people, yeah. We're related, but we're not those people that were the little kids in the house. We're all fully competent, we all have different strengths and weaknesses, and we can work together. And it's really improved our relationships.
SPEAKER_01Well, you stepped out of it and said, Oh, we don't have to work in that system anymore.
SPEAKER_00But it didn't happen overnight.
SPEAKER_01No. And did it happen after your parents were gone?
SPEAKER_00My father was still alive, but the he was the crisis, he became ill, and we had to rally to help him with his situation. And there was no way anybody could do it alone. We all had to work together, but to do it effectively, we had to deal with each other as fully evolved people and not as you're the you're the funny kid and you're you're the dumb kid, and I'm the smart. Like, no, that's we can't, we have to we have to get beyond all of those.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting, you know, when you tell that story, and maybe I'm overstepping, but the um the power dynamic shifted because your dad was now more vulnerable than powerful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he had to be taken care of.
SPEAKER_01So that changed the power dynamic in the whole scenario, right, which then allowed the system to shift.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's yes, that exact that's exactly true. That's exactly true. There was a void. And we I feel like it was very successful, except for one person. My youngest brother did not participate in the group activity in any way.
SPEAKER_01Well, he had his own experience of all of that, huh?
SPEAKER_00Or form. He he has uh I haven't spoken to him in over ten years. He has his own narrative, yeah, and I don't exactly understand it. I will say that my initial thought, this is going back so I we haven't had a relationship for ten years, at least.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Before that, I felt like I should be the one to fix this. Let me try to fix it. And so I made all kinds of efforts to the extent that I felt that I owed him an apology for maybe like not being the brother that he needed whenever he needed me. I mean, he was six years younger than me, so he was always like a little kid to me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it I'm sure there were times where I could have been more supportive. So I apologized. Like, hey, I apologize. You know, I love you, I want to have a relationship with you. We don't have to be like best buddies. We don't have, you know, to wake up in the morning hand in hand and walk down the beach and get a what?
SPEAKER_04Chai.
SPEAKER_00A chai. Yeah. We don't have to go down the beach and get a chai, but let's have something.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And, you know, I I'm interested in doing that. And so we had those discussions and they seemed to go well, but we had a falling out again, and it seemed to be again to me our the the things that would set him off always seem so trivial to me. And that's part of the disconnect. Like I don't understand why this is so monumental. But I but this is the point I'm going to. It really isn't to bash him so much.
SPEAKER_01I know it sounds like I am, but what I hear, I so I'm gonna say I don't hear you bashing. I hear you being curious and confused by his experience.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And and disappointed and sad about it.
SPEAKER_00Right. You know, because what I realized, and this was the big aha moment. Do people still say that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they sure they do.
SPEAKER_00Is it irritating when they do? Is it as irritating as that clown holding the door and the elevator?
SPEAKER_01There is nothing as a clown. Oh, I thought you were talking about real clown. You're talking about the elevator clown.
SPEAKER_00It could be a real clown. I don't like those. I would like it better if it was a real clown doing it. Get your hands off the door.
SPEAKER_01Clown.
SPEAKER_00Your job, clown. When the elevator door opens, just go out. That's all you gotta do. Don't hold anything.
SPEAKER_01No one needs you to do that. Don't be the hair. He wants to be the hero, Ross.
SPEAKER_00Put your hands in your pockets, hero clown.
SPEAKER_01Not everybody's comfortable with that in an elevator.
SPEAKER_00What?
SPEAKER_01Hands and pockets.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know that. Yeah, it's true.
SPEAKER_00Why why would that make people uncomfortable?
SPEAKER_01Sometimes you don't know what people are doing in their pockets. It's their business. It's not when you're on the elevator with them as a woman. How much can you do? What? Yes.
SPEAKER_00Oh no. Wow. That's just gross.
SPEAKER_01Tell me about it.
SPEAKER_00Yikes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Ugh.
SPEAKER_01It's not easy in the world too.
SPEAKER_00I've heard.
SPEAKER_01It's hard. I've heard this. It's not great.
SPEAKER_0099% of our guests on this show are identify as women. And they have said that's the very thing. It is. In one way or another.
SPEAKER_01It's not an unsafe world out there. It's not a safe world out there.
SPEAKER_00You have to choose. Is it safe or unsafe?
SPEAKER_01It is unsafe.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I realized that all these efforts trying to fix it and to make it okay and to apologize and to forge a relationship. He didn't want that.
SPEAKER_01That was for you.
SPEAKER_00He didn't want any of it. He wanted me to leave him alone.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's interesting though. What I would say is you don't know what he actually wanted.
SPEAKER_00No. But he didn't want that.
SPEAKER_01You only know that he did not accept what you were offering. I was thinking it's also a very hard way to live. For him. It's a very uncomfortable place to live. And it makes it very it's they're very prickly people.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01They're not that they're hard to be around.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And it's a hard, it's hard in there too. I can only imagine how hard it is in there.
SPEAKER_00And that that's really good empathy, and that's why you're a therapist. Because it is, I imagine it is hard for him. And it's and I obviously my personality sets him off. I yeah, I just see myself as an elevator clown. That's my job.
SPEAKER_01And the elevator clown bothers the fuck out of him.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I'm not even holding the door. I'm just sitting there with my big shoes, and he's like those shoes are too big. Those shoes are too big.
SPEAKER_01Ridiculous, right?
SPEAKER_00I could lose a small book in those shoes.
SPEAKER_01I am going to challenge that you're making a lot of assumptions about how he feels versus observations about how he acts.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So what do you mean? Tell me what you would say.
SPEAKER_01He has not reached out since that time.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01You can say that. But you can't say he doesn't want mm mm. You can't say why. But if he did want it, so we don't he could want it and not be able to overcome his other stuff that keeps him from being able to seek it.
SPEAKER_00True enough. True enough.
SPEAKER_01But but you can say that he has not responded in a reciprocal way to your overtures.
SPEAKER_00And he's not asked me for help.
SPEAKER_01He doesn't do that.
SPEAKER_00Initially, I felt bad about it. I felt guilt. I was mad about it. I resented it. I felt sad about it. But it's all muted now. I've kind of just said, well, that's how it is.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's how it is right now. Maybe it'll change.
SPEAKER_04Maybe it won't.
SPEAKER_00But it probably won't. But I don't I don't bring the expectation to it. And when I don't bring the expectation to it, it it makes it a lot less noisy in my life as a source of disappointment.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, Buddhism tells us that pain comes our way, but suffering comes from wanting something to be different than it is that's outside of our sphere of influence.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You allowed it to be what it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's what it is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So here is my little formula for dealing with this. I want to know what you think about it. Yeah. So if you find yourself with a family member or the whole family and you're feeling estranged, you're feeling distant, you're feeling conflict. Number one, decide what you want. Yes. Not what you think you should want, not what the storybook tells you you should want, not what the movies say, but what do you actually want? Because sometimes you actually don't want a relationship with some of these people. Right? You just don't want it. And if you don't want it, that's an important piece of information. And you should know that up front. So what do you want? Make a decision. If what you want is some kind of different relationship, then you have to make good faith efforts to get that. But do only your part of the work. So far, so good?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00This is a good system so far.
SPEAKER_01Oh, good. Keep going.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's number three. There's five points.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Number number one, decide what you want. Two, make a good faith effort to get it, but do only your part of it. Don't try to do their part. Don't try to fix it for them. Just you this is what I can do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And be clear about it. I can I want a better relationship with you. I can do these things. Number four. If you don't get what you want, let it go. So you've made your good faith efforts, you're not getting, let it go. And it's okay if that's an abrupt decision. Just like, nope, not doing it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You're not obligated to do it perfectly when you decide to say, no, I'm not doing this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Just stand your ground. Don't be ashamed. Don't be bullied. It's like, nope, not gonna do it anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm out. Not playing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I like these. I I like those ideas. I think I got one more. Oh, go on.
SPEAKER_00This is the last one. Number five.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Decide whether you want to leave a space open for that person if they decide and choose to change how they are with you. Those are my five point. That's my five-point plan.
SPEAKER_01I like those points a lot. I think that what I would add in there is more warmth.
SPEAKER_00I think what I would change about it is less punching.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I just I think more warmth for you and more warmth for the water.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, how would we how would we do put in the warmth?
SPEAKER_01Can I see the list? Decide what you want. I would I would change that from decide what you want to would I like a relationship with that person or am I ready to let that go?
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And then I would say, if you decide I would like to pursue that, then I would think like, what's your goal in doing that? Is your goal to change that other person? Because you're not going to do that. Right.
SPEAKER_00That can't be it.
SPEAKER_01Or is your goal to invite that other person into a relationship with you?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. So and then, you know, that would be to say, hey, mom, dad, brother, whoever, um, I miss you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I would like to find a way to have a different relationship with you than I've ever had it before. Would you be up for that?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And if they're like, yeah, and you're like, great, here, that'd be the do your own part of the work, right? Okay. Um, and then you get to do that. And then if they continue to just be who they have been all along, yeah. Um, then that's that place where you get to decide, do I say something? Like, I'm out of here. You're never gonna do this, right? Or do you just get to be like, oh, I'm just gonna let that be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? Some more softness to it. Right. Like it doesn't have to be some big statement.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, uh yes, I agree with that. I think, in fact, I think at that point, it shouldn't be about making a that sort of statement. You it's more of a it's like playing tug of war with somebody and finally deciding, you know what, I'm just gonna let go of the rope.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00So good luck.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00But I'm not I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm not trying to have the last drop the mic moment.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00I just don't want to tug anymore.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And I'm okay with letting go.
SPEAKER_01Yes. That's how it feels to me. Yeah, I like that.
SPEAKER_00It's not a revenge thing.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And then that um like decide at the end. I also think that you can decide for now and you can always change your mind later. So you could be like, I'm willing to let that relationship go with the possibility that in the future, kind of like with your brother, you're like, you know, I I'm letting that go, but in the future, if an opportunity were put to present itself, I could reevaluate that.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What I would suggest is if you're struggling with any other person in your life, the first place to do is turn the mirror around and look at yourself and say, Whoa, right, what am I wanting out of this? What's the goal of this for me? Am I trying to make it more comfortable? Am I feeling like I'm supposed to do so? Like explore your own feelings about it so that you can have peace about wherever it is. Right. Which means then you're not making your reach to them about you. It's simply an offering of, hey, this is who I am, this is how I approach relationships. Would you be interested in that? Um there's a really great book called by a woman named Melissa Urban. Um it's called I think it's called The Book of Boundaries. Um, but it's something like that. Her Melissa Urban, she was one of the founders of the whole 30, she and her now ex-husband, but she's wonderful. She has great internet um Instagram content too.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01But her book recently, she has this like I think it's um green, yellow, red version. She does like scripting for boundaries. It's wonderful. So it has like the gentlest of boundaries set, the medium boundary set, and then the like hammer down boundary set for like how you can look at how you could approach different different settings of those, which I think is great because sometimes you want to start with maybe the green level of like, oh, gentle, soft, how do I approach this with you? And then the person still doesn't do it. And so you have to get more and more clear.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. And I think that's an important lesson, or a lesson's too strong of a word, but an important thing to know, which you said early on, is that it's not gonna all change right away.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00And it might even get worse right initially, where people are like it might never change at all. It might never change, but if it is gonna change, it could be something where somebody says, Oh yeah, it makes sense, yeah, let's do that. Yeah, but it's more likely going to be something that they are will resist if it requires a change in your system because now everything's gonna be out of balance and nobody knows what how it works. Right. And it's uncomfortable to change the system to overcome resistance. And sometimes you have to say, you know what, this is I can't fix this, and I it's not my job to fix it.
SPEAKER_01I'm opting out, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And what do you think about people? I know a lot of people around here where they have their found families, chosen family, and they just like have just opted out of their real family.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I I think I think sometimes that makes sense for someone.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Particularly if, you know, their original family system is really unhealthy for them.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Then making a choice and having a boundary of like that doesn't work for me, and I'm gonna find a place where I feel like I belong and I feel loved. Um I I mean I I think for some people that's the best choice.
SPEAKER_00And it doesn't have to be a forever choice. It can be just for now.
SPEAKER_01It can be.
SPEAKER_00Just for now. I'm not I'm in my chosen family, and that's where I want to be. I know I have my real family, and whatever connection or misconnection I have with them is the way that is right now. But it could that could change.
SPEAKER_01And I would challenge your language of real family and call it original family.
SPEAKER_00Original family.
SPEAKER_01Versus chosen family.
SPEAKER_00That sounds like a KFC thing.
SPEAKER_01Because real indicates that the other family isn't.
SPEAKER_00Original family. Yeah, the other one is obviously real.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Original family recipe. Well, I feel really lucky that that we had seven kids. And this goes back to the beginning when I was saying, you know, we have these high expectations for everything to be to work in our family. When you have a lot of kids, it's not that unusual that there's one kid that you don't really relate to as well.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00And it's lucky it's not more. And I feel lucky that I have a good relationship with my other siblings or good enough.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, instead of focusing on, well, I don't get along with person X, which I thought was a horrible kid name.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, when you ain't name a kid set him up that well. When you name a kid person X, it didn't set him up. I want to thank you, Tracy, for uh giving me more free therapy. Everybody knows that's why you're on the show. So I but it was actually really kind of interesting to hear you talk about these topics, and I bet some other people listening to this will um have taken away something useful as they sort of parse through their own family mazes and puzzles. We've got people who listen to us, uh, not only in this country, in places like New York, LA, Atlanta, Seattle, Portland, of course, Chicago, many, many other cities across this great and fabulous nation, but also in Australia. Hello, Australia, London, thanks for listening. Canada, all over Canada, and many other countries as well. I think we're up to, I don't know, 50 countries, something like that around the world every week. And as I say, if you like what we're doing, it really helps if you share the show. We're small, independent, we're like a small book. We appreciate that. If you want to help us financially, you can get a Patreon, smells like humans, and you can contribute there. That is really appreciated. You can reach out to us on Instagram or you can send us an email, the email address is in the show notes. So thanks once again for being part of this family, and hopefully it's not too dysfunctional for you to be part of this family because you're loved here, you're welcome, you're loved, you're embraced just as you are. You can wear whatever you want, and we hope you're gonna tune in to another episode because whether you are working as an elevator clown or just someone reading a really small book, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.