Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
HOW TO GET THE RAISE YOU DESERVE
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Human Resources expert Emily joins Ross to discuss strategies for getting a raise. Tangents include: Peter Principle; Cruise Ship mishaps; Mai Tais; Harry Potter, Joe or Jo or Jough.
Notes:
- https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/14/business/how-to-ask-for-a-raise.html?searchResultPosition=1
- https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/business/money-salary-transparency-pay.html?searchResultPosition=2
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
- https://www.getawaycouple.com/people-fall-off-cruise-ships/
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
I'm a Wii Man! I'm a Wii person! I'm a Wi-Man! I want to put the gorge in my pocket. Money, please!
SPEAKER_00Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder, what and why? I'm Ross, your host, and my guest today is Shiny, talented, super smart, and puts on the best Harry Potter party I have ever been to. It's Emily.
SPEAKER_02Oh hi Dare.
SPEAKER_00And you've got another Harry Potter party coming up. That's hard to say. Harry Potter party.
SPEAKER_03Harry Potter party.
SPEAKER_00You've got another one coming up. Yeah. And the theme this year is Chamber of Secrets. And uh How is that different from any other Harry Potter?
SPEAKER_03I mean, you have to have something kind of like theme the decorations after.
SPEAKER_00I gotta tell you, I went last year to this Harry Potter party and my expectations were medium. I wasn't and you show up and you like walk through this like fog tunnel, like you're making this transition from, I guess, the train station to Hogwarts or something. It was so cool. I almost broke my neck on the stairs. But other than that.
SPEAKER_03You should have seen the uh Amazon delivery guy try to figure out where to put the package because he saw the tunnel and he's like, I don't know if I want to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I had a little trouble with tunnels. We had another wonderful five-star review. And I wanted to read it to you because whenever we get a wonderful five-star review, we like to read it.
SPEAKER_03I love to hear it.
SPEAKER_00This one comes from Kev's Own Dressing.
SPEAKER_03Kev's.
SPEAKER_00Kev's Own Dressing. Kev writes, This group of humans are something special. I'm not too big of a podcast guy, but this one is it. They know what they're doing, and you won't regret hitting play.
SPEAKER_01Do we know what we're doing?
SPEAKER_00That's really a nice compliment.
SPEAKER_01It's good to know.
SPEAKER_00Um, you are engulfed in a convo/slash topic that makes you think and wonder. Ross and his guests, despite being in a studio probably far from where you're listening from, have this dynamic that make you feel like you're there with them. I like to listen to them on a nice walk. And before you know, you've walked miles. Please give them a listen, a follow, and a review. And then it's hashtag adopt the chinchilla, which is referencing a show from season one with, I believe, my good friend Star.
SPEAKER_03Old school.
SPEAKER_00It's very that was a really that was probably like 30 episodes in. We did the chinchilla episode. We really appreciate those five-star reviews, and we appreciate Kev's own dressing that you listen. Okay, so Emily, you're an HR person.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I am.
SPEAKER_00You're we're gonna call you our HR expert today.
SPEAKER_03Um, I'm the most experted person in the room.
SPEAKER_00Now we know, and I know you know, a lot of people work for a living. And many of those folks from time to time believe they should be paid more dough. But a lot of people, not just a few, a lot of people say it is very difficult to ask for a raise. Yes. Especially according to some articles I've read, introverts, which makes sense, and women. Have you ever been in a position where you had to ask for a raise? Yes. How did that go for you?
SPEAKER_03Um it felt empowering only because it was recent. Okay.
SPEAKER_00And how would you describe that perspective?
SPEAKER_03I understand where the money is in my company. And I understand the budget and how and why we pay who we pay. I also have a better understanding of the market.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, so who's getting paid what in the United States. Um, and also I know my worth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, wow. That is you covered the entire podcast episode.
SPEAKER_03It's over. It's done.
SPEAKER_00It's done.
SPEAKER_03But I always always like that. Um, and I also didn't get the yes that I wanted. Um, so that was an interesting thing to talk about um with my boss. But I had plans, I had steps in place to get myself to the yes that I wanted.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, this is all very keenly on topic, and I want to get back to all of these things. I want to just mention a few things that come into play that make it difficult for some people to ask for more money.
SPEAKER_03And Emily, 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah so maybe 10 years ago, Emily will relate to some of these things. Some people are just shy by nature, introverted, as I said, or they have low self-esteem. Or some people I know, actually, a lot of people I know believe in a just world, which means basically that someone will notice that you're doing great work and they will do the right thing. I don't have to like beat my own drum or sound my own horn.
SPEAKER_03I don't believe that anymore.
SPEAKER_00But some people like that's how they that's their operating philosophy at work is well, surely they must know that I'm burning the midnight oil and I'm doing such great work, and everyone knows that I'm the person to go to. So everyone, they're gonna do the right thing. I don't have to ask. And if I do have to ask, then probably I don't deserve it. People think like that. Um, and some people I've heard say, I they say the words, quote, I don't want to seem greedy because I'm asking for too much money. Greedy. And I always say, greedy. Wait, you're working there, right? Yeah, you working, you're working for them. You're not so greedy to me as you go in into a place where you don't work and say, Would you give me a hundred thousand dollars, please? Yeah. And they'll be like, Why? And they would just laugh at you, they would laugh hysterically. Uh, if you're working for your money, then I don't think it's greedy if you think you're worth more. It's not greedy to want more if you think you deserve more.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Some people just have a lack of experience, you know, they're younger or they just haven't been working that much. And I want to see what you think about this because I this is something I thought of. I feel like when we're just starting to work as teenagers, or even younger, depending on where you're from, because some places, you know, you go to work at age eight, you hit the factory, you put in your solid eight, you come home, you have some gruel, and you hit the rack. Yep. But uh some pe most uh people in this country start working, you know, in their teens, and you're trained either directly or indirectly, that it's the grown-ups who tell you what you get, what your salary is.
SPEAKER_03And my grown-ups in my life up to that point were taking care of me. So I thought that that was going to always be the case. Right.
SPEAKER_00So it's a it's a normal thing to think. And you also are trained that you don't really have any say in it. Like you go to work at a restaurant and they say, This is what we pay. We're paying minimum wage, or if you're doing this job, you get this, or you get tips, whatever it is, but this is what you get, and you're like, okay. I I don't you don't think you don't feel like you have a voice in that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And a lot of those jobs, it's really easy for whoever's doing the hiring to say, Oh, you don't like that? Well, we'll go to the next person.
SPEAKER_03Well, in high school, they don't teach you to speak up or speak out. They teach you compliance. So it's very hard to take that skill into the workforce if you were never taught it in the first place.
SPEAKER_00In my case, they tried to beat it into me.
SPEAKER_03Catholic school?
SPEAKER_00No, well, the Catholic school, but then he but I never was good in school up through grade 12. I was constantly kid? Huh? Read the funny kid. I was very funny, but I also was a troublemaker. And I also um I was triggered by authority figures. So I always wanted to see what I could do to make them kind of lose their stuff.
SPEAKER_01Got it.
SPEAKER_00So I so with my little hypothesis here about we we are trained to say, well, okay, the grown-ups tell us what we're worth, the grown-ups tell us what we're making, what a job, what the pay is, and so forth. And then as we get older and we start working for an agency or a company or somebody, we kind of transfer that to them. Like, well, they know, they know what I'm worth, they know what this job should should someone doing this job should make. So I'll leave it up to them. And I'm really not qualified. I'm it's not up to me to decide. So think about that for a moment. Do you think there's any truth to that that we are kind of socialized to be kind of uh to have very little agency when it comes to our value?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00In the workplace.
SPEAKER_03I uh and I think for me, I've experienced it in different levels where I worked in a religious nonprofit.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03And uh I was never um paid equitably, mostly, I want to say, because I was a woman.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03And I was an unmarried woman. So I uh did not get paid uh the same as male counterparts who were, quote, starting a family and needed to support a partner.
SPEAKER_00So that is the biggest horseshit kind of excuse that one can get, I think.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00It was it was that sounds so old fashioned too. That sounds like you this is from a previous life or something.
SPEAKER_03It was definitely previous life, but it was maybe 15 years ago.
SPEAKER_00That's just it's so hard to believe because that sounds like something from the 40s or 50s or 60s, maybe 70s, but it was in the 2000s.
SPEAKER_03And I was a college graduate. So it was a it was a hard thing to have that perspective once I got out of it to see the amount of money I was being paid.
SPEAKER_00It is true that a company has the power to pay you what they want or not, but that doesn't mean you don't know your own worth. Those are two different things. Okay, another reason the company sets up parameters, some of which may be made up. And this uh I was reminded of this when you were listing all of your positive attributes when it comes to asking for a raise, and one of them is like knowing where the money is and what the market is. Yeah. But if you don't know that, um your manager, when you go for a raise, can say, Oh, uh, we can't. We don't, we're not, you know, we we're just not making enough money, or that wouldn't be right. Some jobs have like really strict pay scales, and so there are like real limitations, like they tell you when you when you come to work there, this is what the range of money you can make in this job, and that's it. We that's it. So those things exist, but I think a lot of times you go in and then they tell you a story that you have no way of knowing is true or not.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, some companies create their own limitations that they use as an excuse not to pay you more. Correct. Profits are down, expenses are up. People doing your job don't make that much money. No, they'll say things like that, or you haven't been here long enough. You haven't been here as long as Joe. And now in your mind, you're thinking, yeah, but I kick Joe's ass every day at work because I'm doing great.
SPEAKER_03And then more than likely, Joe probably should be getting paid more too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Joe should Joe needs more.
SPEAKER_03There's never a good reason for me not getting paid more money is because someone else isn't getting paid enough either.
SPEAKER_00And I would say, even if the company is giving these reasons in good faith, they're not just trying to get over on you, it doesn't mean that these reasons should be the end of the conversation. Correct. Because if the conversation is you think you're worth X, they think you're not. Let's talk about that. Let's not talk about why it's impossible for me to be to make that money, make this money at that job. Yeah. According to some, some bosses, when someone comes in to ask for more money, they throw adult temper tantrums.
SPEAKER_03Then I would probably bring a third person into the conversation and have it documented.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03If you have a that's that HR experience or find a new job, if you have a supervisor that's not emotionally stable, get out. It's not gonna be good for you.
SPEAKER_00It's to me, it tells you so much about for whom you're working and probably the company as a whole, because they obviously this person has the job. Somebody in power said this person should be your boss.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if they are throwing a tamp, uh the equivalent of some sort of temper tantrum, or they get emotional, they get angry at you to try to make you feel bad, or they belittle you or guilt you out, uh, hello, that's a big alarm bell ringing that uh they're probably never gonna pay you what you're worth, and you don't want to work there anyway.
SPEAKER_03No, I'm not here for it.
SPEAKER_00And I know you some people are restricted in the kind of jobs they can get or the kind of mobility they have, but that doesn't mean you can't start looking. You might have to do the job to make your bills, but beyond the lookout. Yeah, there you go. Beyond for a new job. Yeah, I think uh well, another thing to know if you have a a boss that in a money discussion, really any discussion, they lose their cool, so to speak, and they have a temper tantrum or they try to make you feel bad, that's probably all they got. So you're dealing with someone who has limited skills as a human being and certainly as a manager, and they're hoping that that they'll fire the shot across your bow and you will retreat. But if you stay in the moment and like weather that mini storm, then they've probably got nothing else for you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So there's a lot of positive messaging out there uh these days about people getting their pay getting their money. Beyonce says, give me my check.
SPEAKER_03Rihanna says, Bitch, better have my money.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but not everybody is Rihanna. Well, not everybody is Beyoncé. No. As we know. If Beyonce came into this room right now and asked me for a raise, and even though I uh she doesn't work for me, uh, and we don't even know each other, I would pull out money.
SPEAKER_03All the credit cards, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I respect anything that woman is doing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, the other thing that's happening that's good is in many states they're uh enacting or have enacted salary transparency laws.
SPEAKER_03I love this so much. My company just adopted that. So all the jobs I post online, um, there's a range. And the range is based off of research that I've done in a database to make sure it's market comparable.
SPEAKER_00And that's so much better because in the past, uh when you know, when I was starting, you know, working at jobs and stuff, it was always sort of a black box.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like we don't really know.
SPEAKER_03It's we're not gonna tell you until like the third interview in.
SPEAKER_00And for years we were told You're not supposed to know. You're not supposed to talk about how much you make with your other um uh co-workers. It's a load of crap. It's a load of crap, but who does it protect? The company. Yeah. See if co-workers know, like, well, Joe, go back to Joe again. Fuck Joe. Yeah, Joe's pissing me off. And I don't know if it's J-O-E or J-O or J-O-U-G-H, but Joe is bugging me. But if Joe is making uh $10 an hour more than me, and we're doing the same job, and maybe Joe sucks at his job or her job. But the point is that I don't know that, then I have no information to use when I go in and say, Hey, I'm doing great work and I want to be paid more. If I don't know what anybody else is making, I'm at a disadvantage in that conversation.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00But for years we were told, don't talk about it, it's bad form.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's like the only pe the only people are benefit are benefiting from that are the people paying you. Yeah. Because they can control, they can control what they pay.
SPEAKER_03It's a power thing for sure.
SPEAKER_00Power thing. Okay, so I looked at some expert advice, and you tell me if you think these are good ideas or bad ideas, and then I have my Ross advice.
SPEAKER_02Ooh.
SPEAKER_00I might have some Emily advice. And we're gonna we want Emily advice, and feel free to inject the Emily advice in this conversation as soon as you think of it. So experts say you're going in to ask for more money, be confident and positive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's good. I would say add in, make a business case. That's part of the confident.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, um, what's that? What's a business case?
SPEAKER_03Why is it good for the company that you're being you're making more money?
SPEAKER_00Oh. Why is it good for the company that you will be making more money? If I get this raise that I'm asking for, it'll be good for the company because and what what what are you it's tickling your vegetable brain right now?
SPEAKER_03Um, usually when I go in for a raise, um, I encourage people to um grab the latest version of their job description.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03Go through it and highlight everything that you're rocking and maybe mark the things that you aren't doing or um that you've expanded upon so you have an understanding of where you're hitting and what what your worth is based off of your job description.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03And what's the new value add and what that value add is going to cost them.
SPEAKER_00So um I love this. That is really well said. And I want to make sure that it's clear because I think what you're saying is I want to know if you're saying that if you show what you're nailing in your job description, yeah. That alone may not be enough.
SPEAKER_03Correct.
SPEAKER_00You have to show the value added. Like I'm doing this and it's better because and then maybe show capacity.
SPEAKER_03And this is also going going to this the realm of like you're not just asking to be paid more for the same job. You want to ensure that the company knows that it's a good move for them.
SPEAKER_00Right. I like that a lot. Another piece of advice is face-to-face meeting, don't do it on email or text. 50%. That's a no-no. And that's true for a lot of things still in life. I know we're in a text, you know, no face-to-face anymore because we do everything on text and email. But some conversations need to be happen in person, especially the ones that are most important to you.
SPEAKER_03I will add though, after you've had the face-to-face conversation, um, if there is action items, if there was a promise made, um, say, like, hey, you complete these trainings, then we will increase your pay to four percent, which will make it this much.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03You email a recap back to your boss and have them respond to it. And that response is an acceptance of the content in your email.
SPEAKER_00Great advice. Man, you're killing this. I'm so glad you're here as the expert. When you're having the conversation, focus on your work and not your personal life. Correct. So don't go in there and say, I need money because uh my kid needs to go to private school.
SPEAKER_03That's not your boss's problem.
SPEAKER_00Right. Or, you know, I uh my deadbeat partner has a gambling problem. So I you know, or you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm sure, and and I'm a very fortunate person to have um the people who I work with be extremely compassionate and empathetic. Um, but for me to ask for more money, it's not because of my personal life. Will it impact my personal life? Yes. But if I'm asking for more money, it's because I'm worth it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it always has to be about the work you're doing and your worth and not the fact that, you know, you're you know, you have a kid on a bender. So this is something that you just said, it's the experts say build your case for a raise. So you're very specific about your contributions, know the internal market, that is what the company's internal market is, yep, and the external market. Yeah. Because in some organizations, like some nonprofits and stuff, they say, Yeah, we know you can go to a private private sector and make more. We can't pay that. You're working here for a reason, and but but know what that is. Yeah. Know what the internal market is at the company, know what the external market is.
SPEAKER_03And that that information is readily available on Google.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03So you don't need a database. It's all there.
SPEAKER_00Workers are much more able to have this information at their fingertips than it was, you know, 25 years ago or whatever it was. And also, this is I'm inserting this in there along with this, because I ran a small company and I had this one guy who always wanted to raise, but his reasons are always were I show up on time.
SPEAKER_01Congratulations.
SPEAKER_00Have great hair. You know, it was always like I do like bare minimum. Yeah, it's like I show up, I'm not drunk. You know, it was he never would say it that way, but it was always kind of like I always say, Yeah, but what are you doing?
SPEAKER_03That's the cost of living raise, then. Congratulations. You get a lot of time. Cost of living, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You're doing the you're doing your basic job. What are you doing that's more than that? And he was always he was be stumped by the question. And he was a very smart person, so it wasn't like you know, someone who needed remedial help. He was just like convinced that by being a cool dude and you know, a nice guy, and shows up every day and does whatever he's supposed to do, that that's he need he needs to make a lot more money. And we hadn't A number of conversations that were very frustrating to him because I would always say, Okay, well tell me, like basically make your business case.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it would always be like nothing. He would have nothing.
SPEAKER_03I think a a reasonable business case is for now, coming out of the pandemic, where we're being asked to go back into the office and things being more expensive, like food and and gas and such. Um I think business case would be uh minimum cost of living. There should be a minimum and it's so much higher than what minimum wage is.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03I don't think most companies should ever be able to get away with paying people that much money if like you're in a metro area like we're in Portland right now. It's just so expensive.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, you know, this is uh uh one of my little mini soapboxes, but one of my dream interventions um uh that I'd love to see this is independent of asking for a raise, I would just love to see a universal base wage paid to people for being a human being. Agreed. And then what you make on the job then is on top of that, but you always have this uh little uh safety net. Another piece of advice make it clear that you are a wee person, we not W-E-E.
SPEAKER_02Like a wee, like a person. I'm a wee man. I'm a wee person. I'm a wee man, and I want to put the gold in my pockets. Money, please.
SPEAKER_00But the idea that you are there for the team and managers like that, yep, you know, and I was like, okay, I wasn't that excited about that one, but I get it.
SPEAKER_03No, I 100% get it because how I was hired on at my company, my my job description changed and I see it changing in the future. I saw myself being able to contribute to the team more strategically. So that benefited the team. It allowed me to reassess how I can expand my job description, and that I saw was probably the only true way that I could get away with making more money with this company with the skill sets that I have.
SPEAKER_00I think you've rehabilitated that item for me because I wasn't that excited about the way they expressed it, but I like the way you put it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, there's a next item that's similar to building your business case, and that is differentiate your contribution. These are all the expert recommendations. So, you know, find something that you do that other people don't do, or you just do better than everyone else. Like you're never late. I mean, in certain jobs, that could be really crucial. Like certain jobs, like people are always late, and you're never late, you're always there ready to go, or you always finish on time, or you finish your work on time or early, or you don't mind helping, or you're the person who does the dirty work without complaining. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Sure. I mean, that's all valuable stuff that kind of just you're not special. Like everyone thinks that they're the person that does that.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03So that doesn't hit as powerful for me.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, but I also know that me and my relationship with my supervisor, my boss, she knows that she can um rely on me. She knows that I'm loyal to her.
SPEAKER_00You've already differentiated yourself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I don't need to say that out loud.
SPEAKER_00Right. So you've already got that relationship and that understanding. I'm thinking about people who are in lower level kinds of positions where retail, like say a barista. Yeah, retail, barista fashion.
SPEAKER_03They make sure they close and their their clothes is clean.
SPEAKER_00Right. So it's that kind of thing where you can't talk about all these great value-added contributions because your job is to clean the frying machine or whatever it is, but you can within that you can say, hey, but you know, I'm never you never have to tell me to redo the the cleaning process because I always do right the first time. Yeah. And that helps the next shift get ready to go, you know, whatever. So it's that kind of thing to look for those, even in jobs where you don't have a lot of leeway in terms of what you can add in terms of value, you can talk about how you're streamlining things so that it works better for everybody. This next one, again, I wasn't crazy about it. Let me see what you think. Give your boss a reputation to live up to. And here's the direct quote, the example given in the article. Quote, you know, I've all no I've always seen you as a person who is concerned about equity and concerned about making sure that people you work with are properly treated. And I'm so glad that is the case because I want to talk to you about my situation.
SPEAKER_03That smells like bullshit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I hate it. And this was a direct quote from an expert who I kind of like. That I feel if someone said that to me, I would be like gross, like it sounds manipulative and shallow.
SPEAKER_03I also feel like it's almost like a veiled threat. Like, I know that you believe in diversity, equity, inclusion.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's really hard for people to pull that off. Like, not everybody is smooth. Authentically, yeah, like you'd have to be pretty slippery. Let's talk about my advice, the Ross advice, which I want you to feel free to critique. So here's the thing that I always say to people remember it's your money that we're talking about. You can ask for your salary or your money situation to be evaluated whenever you want.
SPEAKER_03It doesn't have to just be, yeah, your evaluation time.
SPEAKER_00Anybody that gives you grief about a reasonable salary review request or discussion is not worth working for, and probably it's never going to come across for you anyway. Yeah. Uh any good boss, I mean, they don't have to be great, but just a decent boss expects you to be concerned about your money because you're working for it. Yeah. It they know exactly they're in the same boat. Yeah. Unless you're working for, you know, the CEO, everybody is having the same thought. Like, am I, hey, am I doing well? Should I get more money? They all know this is normal. Then to treat you like it isn't normal is messed up. But you need to start with that proposition. Remember, it is your money. Yeah. You absolutely have a right to talk about the money you're making for working.
SPEAKER_03And I 100% think my boss should be making more money too.
SPEAKER_00Let's both go in and get it. Let's all get a raise. I think that was an office episode.
SPEAKER_03Oh, really?
SPEAKER_00Ross advice number two is you really do need concrete reasons why you should be paid more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, if if it's a brand new job and you're just starting out, but you've been there a year and they're still want to pay you the same as when you were hired, I think that's something's wrong with that. Yeah. So cost of living, fine, but you now are much more valuable because you've been there a year and you know your job now. Because I don't care what your experience is when you start a new job, you got stuff to learn, you gotta figure out how to fit in.
SPEAKER_03It costs so much money to hire somebody.
SPEAKER_00Right. So you are were you after a year, if you haven't, you know, messed up and like broken all the inventory or you know, uh accidentally stabbed somebody, or things that can happen on the job, you know.
SPEAKER_03I did dump hot water on myself, but well, that's your own thing. Yeah, it's my own thought.
SPEAKER_00A lot of times people go, Well, I've only been there a year, and it's like, yeah, but you're already so much more valuable now. Because for them to go out and hire somebody it with that level right now, they're gonna they can't just pay what they started paying you. So you've already, and putting cost of living aside, you've already, you already have much more value. So uh you need to know that. Now, if you aren't good at your job and you haven't mastered the basics, uh, you know, then you have a problem. If you've mastered the basics, then you are more valuable. That's a good one. I agree that you need to show how you're making things go better, which I think you said that.
SPEAKER_03And I would say document yourself. Make sure, like keep a calendar, keep a planner, write down what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's too late to make your case right the day before you're going in to ask for more money. So you should be, I think what you're saying is be building your case from the jump.
SPEAKER_03Every day. Like I have a planner and I make sure that I document everything I'm doing. So when I go back, I'm like, I reviewed X, Y, and Z amount of applications this week. I went on five job um, you know, job fair visits and just tell 'em what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00I think that is probably the one of the best pieces of advice because you especially if you're only going in once a year or once every whatever the period is.
SPEAKER_03They might have visibility.
SPEAKER_00You don't always remember what you did.
SPEAKER_03Or that.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I a lot of times, like Ian, you might underestimate, like, you know, it seems like I was doing a lot of X.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00But how much did I actually do? And I I still believe we live in a world where when you can put a number on something, it helps. Yeah. Like I did this thing, this report or this thing 35 times in this period. You know, whatever, so that they can say, wow, that's a lot. As opposed to I did a lot of them. Or it feels like I did a lot of them.
SPEAKER_03It needs to be measurable.
SPEAKER_00So keeping the journal, and this is at any kind of job, just making a note at the end of the day. What did you do today? Because you won't remember all those things. Oh, today was the day where we had the angry customer, but I talked them down from the ledge and it ended up being a positive experience. And the and the manager on the shift said, Hey, good job. Write that down so that you can talk about, hey, I'm really good with customers. Here's an example. Yeah. Because you may not remember that six months later.
SPEAKER_03They want examples too. Don't be generic, tell stories.
SPEAKER_00Yes, tell stories. Oh, I love that advice. That is so right on. Tell stories. That is cool. That is a great way to put it. My recommendation, unlike the expert, I don't think you should butter up the boss to get a raise. I mean, I know there are people out there that need to be buttered up, and that's kind of how you control them. But here's what here's what I would do with with a with a normal boss that doesn't require a lot of uh you know, buttering up or whatever you want to call it, a lot of ingratiating kind of behavior. What I what I like to I like to start this conversation with what I really like about working there. Like I really like, and if it's, you know, if it's the environment or the culture or the work itself or something, talk about why you like being there and why you like being part of it. Think of examples of why. Maybe it's because you have good mentoring or there's good training or there's good advice given, or there's flexible and schedules, or whatever it is. You know, if you can say honestly that you like working there, that's where I like to start. Yeah. My conversation is like, hey, I really like working here and I really like what's happening right now in the company, and I like the direction we're going or I like the work that I'm doing, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_03It feels like um less of a give me money or else situation.
SPEAKER_00And if there's something your boss is actually doing well, you can include that as part of the conversation, and it doesn't sound manipulative. You say, you know, when I'm genuine. Yeah, I really like, and you really have helped me, you know, learn so much about certain situations that I was, you know, initially it was uh struggle for me. And I really appreciate that, and I like that I can come to you and whatever it is, as long as it's real. And then you talk about why I make your business case, your your salary case, and why you should earn more. And and you know, you're excited to talk about that. You know, you're I'm really excited to talk to you about this because I've been thinking about how much I like working here and my contribution over time, and here's where I think we are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's such a much more positive conversation and one that it's easy to engage with. And, you know, you have to be ready for some pushback because their evaluation of your work and your evaluation of your work may be different, but that's you want to know that. Yeah. You want to know it. You don't want to not know that.
SPEAKER_03That's why I think in some ways the performance evaluation portion of your your job uh before it should happen before you start asking for more money. You need to know where you're a good one.
SPEAKER_00Because that's important information for you. Is this a fixable situation? Are we so like misaligned on our perceptions? Like, I know I'm doing great work and you think I suck.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You think I'm like Joe, J-O-U-G-H. Uh, I hate that guy. Yeah, it's really hateable. So is it a fixable thing like, oh, you just didn't know that I was doing this thing, and I was the one actually turning the wheel that made the machine go? Or is it because we don't see eye to eye on this and we never will? So is it fixable or are you doomed? The sooner you know that you're in a place where you're doomed and you're always going to be disregarded or undervalued, the sooner you know that, the better. Yeah. The other thing that I tell people is we're still on the Ross advice. I tell them that even if you don't get the money you're asking for, you've planted the seed.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. It's a conversation.
SPEAKER_00Everybody, so you've opened up the conversation. Everybody knows you want more. So that they can't pretend that you don't. Now, I I will say that when I was running a small company, I tried to stay ahead of that because I didn't want to lose people. That's very smart. So I would say, this person is doing great work and I want to pay them more. And so many times no one had to ask me. I try to get ahead of it because I didn't want them looking, I didn't want them comparing other jobs. Yeah, I wanted them happy.
SPEAKER_03It's kind of like a relationship. The the person shouldn't have to ask for certain things. You should just be like looking for ways to gift and make that person feel good about themselves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you want to keep them.
SPEAKER_03As a manager, you should look at ways to honor your team. So hopefully you find a sweet spot where like you have someone like that.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Honor your team. That is what good managers are. And I know we aren't all lucky enough to work for good managers. Some of them are territorial, some of them are just incompetent, some of them are just have limited, you know, uh faculties for dealing emotionally or intellectually with their employees.
SPEAKER_03Well, because a lot of times people are put in management positions that don't necessarily know how to manage people. They just happen to be there and got promoted into the spot they're in.
SPEAKER_00It's the Peter principle, as they say, or the Joe principle. Joe. Do you know the Peter principle? No, tell me. The Peter principle is based on the idea that you get promoted to your level of incompetence. So it often happens that people are uh this is a classic example, you're really efficient on your line job. So the line being directly related to the income that the company makes, the revenue. So in a factory situation, you're great at using the framostat machine. And then because you're so great at that, they say, why don't you manage the entire Framostat department?
SPEAKER_03Oh, hell no. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so there you are, you're getting more money to manage people, but you don't actually know how to manage people. You've never done it before, and you're not good at it. But you knew how to do the thing really well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so that's this idea that in any organization, over time, on average, the people who are managing are probably not competent to do so because they've been promoted based on irrelevant work.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Work that is not related to being a good manager. So I don't know how I got there, but I'm sure there was a reason. But the point is if you plant the seed, if you're truly valuable, then at least you've put your managers on notice that, hey, you're looking for you're looking for more money, and that they need to be cognizant of that. Um, and maybe they'll be motivated to do something sooner. But you can ask for you can ask for a specific timeline on when you can have this conversation again. If they're not willing to give you the money, say, okay, I understand your reasons at this moment. I'd like to talk about this again in three months.
SPEAKER_03I think that that's actually a really good strategy is to make sure that you're not letting someone slide because your money is not their priority.
SPEAKER_00Right. And if you let it go without any specific, they'll think maybe you'll just forget about it, as if. That's like magical thinking. Like it'll uh they'll stop worrying about it. No, you're not gonna stop worrying about it. In fact, three months from now, we're gonna be doing this again. Yep. And then they know okay, either as the manager, you know you have to address this because you don't feel the person's doing a good job or doing enough to get this money, or they know that they're we're gonna have to come across at some point with something.
SPEAKER_03And you're also ensuring that you're sticking around because it's not like I'm not getting the money I want, bye. Right. Um, I mean, sometimes that might be the okay option because I know job jumping can be a really good way to get more money.
SPEAKER_00Right. And uh the other thing you can do is uh if you can't get the money that you want right now, ask for other stuff. Maybe there's a parking place closer in that you'd like, or maybe you want an extra 15 minutes at lunch, or maybe you want an extra holiday, a cool t-shirt, something, ask for something. Yeah. So I'm uh in the actors union and they tell us like, even if they can't pay you more because actors don't get paid, Jack. They say, ask for something. Ask for something. Like a bowl of green MMs, ask for a dresser, a little bigger dressing room, ask for something. Yeah, anything. Like, don't just walk away. Yeah. So, what is the worst thing that can happen? Uh, you don't get any more money. Yeah. Your boss makes your life miserable for exercising your right as a paid employee to talk about your money. And if they do that, you can get out as soon as possible.
SPEAKER_03If they're doing that, then they're probably not the boss that you should be working for anyway.
SPEAKER_00And they're never gonna come across. No, they're never gonna pay you what you deserve. And they might throw you a bone here and there, but it's not gonna be healthy for you to stay there.
SPEAKER_03I I have two other kind of bits of advice that I've stick it in there is be okay with whatever answer. Like, so you go in there and you you tell them exactly what you need to tell them about why you need to make the money you need to make and how your contribution, but be okay with the no. Right. Don't let it wreck you because um you need to keep this pretty um non-emotional. And I know that asking for money is um um high stakes for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03So prepare yourself for the no. Um, and I think that will help you with whatever outcome happens. And then also a friend of mine told me this jokingly one time, and I had this just in my heart is ask yourself, what would a white man do? And do that. Um and talk more about that. And as a woman in the corporate world, um being okay with putting myself out there, asking for more money, uh, saying what I need, putting up boundaries around different things, um, that bit of advice has been a good reflection point for me because there are so many people, and we were talking about this, the Peter, the Peter, what'd you call it?
SPEAKER_00Peter principle.
SPEAKER_03Peter principle. Uh, there are so many people that are in higher places of leadership, that have more opportunities or more money um allotted to them. And it's because they had the white man audacity to ask for it, to put themselves in the place where they got the thing. And I, as a woman, need to not be so shy about putting myself out here.
SPEAKER_00I love that the white man audacity. Last point of the Ross advice. I've been doing pretty good. You haven't really shot any of this down.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you don't suck.
SPEAKER_00I've done I've done okay. So the last one is a reminder. I had to learn this myself the hard way. A company doesn't love you. And even that cool boss you work for probably doesn't love you either, really. Don't count on that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They might, they might care about you.
SPEAKER_03They might care about you. They might. I have a like I said, I am very happy and very lucky to have the boss that I have, just in case she hears this podcast. Yeah. But but it's also very true. Like I am, I am count my lucky stars every day that I work for the company I work for.
SPEAKER_00And there are tons of people out there, I'm sure, that have good situations, but it's You're replaceable.
SPEAKER_03Everyone is.
SPEAKER_00It's a risky thing to think like, oh, this guy this company really cares about me and they really are looking out for me. So I'm going to put up with something that's less than what I should get.
SPEAKER_03You shouldn't do it in a relationship. You don't need to do it in the work.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And you know, if you're in a situation that isn't great, you should be always just keeping your eye on the market, looking around, sniffing around what's out there. Stay connected with people that do what you do in other companies, you know, because you might hear something. And if you run into a dead end with your salary, you know, even if it's a legitimate one, they really can't pay you more or whatever, or there's a difference of opinion. You are in control of what happens next. You are not a victim, you are not beholden to them, and they certainly don't feel beholden to you. They will replace you immediately. They will not miss you. Your coworkers, I'm not saying there aren't real relationships in companies.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but the function needs to happen.
SPEAKER_00The company, quote unquote. This monolithic thing that's about making money. I mean, they've seen this story before. Good workers don't always stay. Yeah. And they move on with almost no reaction. The company like whatever, somebody fell off the boat. It's like a cruise ship. You know how they're all people are always falling off the cruise ships? Oh, yeah. They just keep going.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They don't look for them.
SPEAKER_03I worked for a big corporation before this job, and you know, I left and I had a really great connection with a lot of my coworkers and I missed them, and it was a great send-off, but also I know I had like three people in queue for my job as soon as I left.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so and the company knows that, you know, and the cruise ship knows that too. So um I don't know how people exactly fall off cruise ships. Is it kind of like they get pushed or too many Mai Ties? Yeah, it's the Mai Thai thing. I like a Mai Thai. You know what I mean? When when when you're when I'm in like a tropical place, I've got to have a Mai Thai. Or I'm in a tropical mood. I need that Mai Thai. And I remember I was someplace and the bartender was making great Mai Ties, but was that a place you would not expect there to be good Mai Tys?
SPEAKER_03But they were like a dive bar or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but they were killing their Mai Thai game, it was eight plus. They should have got a raise. And I had a a lot of Mai T's. I remember that. That's the last thing I remember. But but if you're on a cruise ship and you're sucking down those Mai Ties and uh Planner's Punches and what are the other fruity drinks?
SPEAKER_03Go on over the edge.
SPEAKER_00You just kind of slip over, you're like, look, is that a seal? And then you're woo! And then like the crew they're up in the bridge there, they're like, eh, we lost one, and like, mmm, we got a lot of other people. Yeah. Because how many people fit on those cruise ships? A lot. Like thousands. Don't they get like a thousand people? Two thousand, half of them.
SPEAKER_03Move someone from the poop deck up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the poop deck. And what is the poop deck exactly?
SPEAKER_03I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Sounds bad. It's bad. So uh what's the Lido deck? I always ask that question because I know about the poop deck, because that's a deck, but I don't know what happens. But the Lido deck was in the Love Boat, which was a show in the 70s. Now I talked about the Lido deck, but I don't know what happens on the Lido deck.
SPEAKER_03I think we need to Google that.
SPEAKER_00So we'll have to Google all that. The point is, is they they they're losing. So on a cruise ship, let's say what, they're like 2,000 people on the boat. I actually don't know how many people they can cram on one of these things. They're so big. You've seen these things, right?
SPEAKER_03I've been on one.
SPEAKER_00Okay, they're huge. So let's say 2,000 people. Like 500 are gonna have some kind of legionnaires disease, they're gonna have COVID, they're all gonna be infected. So you those people are gone right away. They're out, they're in trouble, they got a flu, they're throwing up. Syphilis. Syphilis is one thing that you it's the syphilis and chlamydia. I mean, you gotta sign a waiver when you go on a cruise ship because they're saying you're 95% chance you're gonna have syphilis or chlamydia or scurvy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then uh, so there's that, and then there are what else happens on cruise ships? There's probably just a few people to drown in the pool. Like, don't they have a pool?
SPEAKER_03There's like 20 people usually in like an eight-person hot tub sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, those hot tubs, man. You cannot get me in a hot tub anymore. It's just a festering cauldron of bacteria. You will not see me in one of those. They can't clean those things, right?
SPEAKER_03I am always like head out of water in any body of water.
SPEAKER_00And I can tell, I don't care what the age is, I can tell. If I look in a public pool, I can already tell, like, that guy's taking a pee right now. Because there's some people who just can't, they just they get into water and they just let loose. And I don't know why that is. People are gross. Yeah, they can be, and I don't want to be part of it. I don't want to be in that stew, that sick ad mixer. Well, I want to thank you for talking about this. Um, I really appreciate it. I can't remember why I was talking about cruise ships. I think it's because I've seen you're replaceable because the cruise ship just keeps going. Okay, thanks for reminding me.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for being here and being our HR expert of the day.
SPEAKER_03So happy to have.
SPEAKER_00And thank you to everyone for listening to our show. We'd love to have you here. If you could write us a five-star sparkling review on Apple Podcasts, we will read it and you will be famous, uh, or at least as famous as we are. So whatever that could mean. But we do appreciate you listening and we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are a person named Joe, J-O-U-G-H, or nobody likes you, or just someone falling off a cruise ship while enjoying your latest Mai Thai, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.
SPEAKER_03I mean, sure. If I just put my thumb over your face, you totally could be a hot chick.