SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's noteworthy and you should address it if something happens. Sure. Yeah, unless they're really hot.

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Unless they're really hot.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

And then you just say, whatever. Just I'm just hand for that hotness.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

You're pretty.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

You do whatever you do.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder, what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and my guest today is the lighthouse to my fog bank, the follow spot to my stage, and the candle to my creepy stairs. It's the fabulous Emily. Welcome, Emily.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Hey.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

It's great to have you again, and welcome everyone to the show. You know, I always ask for those five-star sparkling reviews on Apple Podcasts, and we got one I want to read real quick if that's okay with you, Emily. Right, do it. So this one is from somebody who describes themself as Cray Tino. And he or she writes, I subscribe to quite a few podcasts to get me through workouts, commutes, or just random lulls in the day, and have done so regularly since 2005. So this person is establishing their podcast credibility pretty pretty hard. During those years, I have continually looked for new, entertaining sources of knowledge and smells like humans is a wonderful discovery in a time when everyone in all caps started their own podcast. This is the Sphincter Tincture. I didn't know I needed just the right length to stay interesting with topics as variable as humans and their various smells. Bonus points for broadcasting out of PDX. So, Cratino, that is awesome, and we really appreciate it. The sphincter tincture was a reference to a previous show. We really appreciate that kind of support and makes us feel good, all chill bumpy.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

And we are really glad that everyone is with us today. What's your favorite book right now, if you're a reader?

SPEAKER_03 2:22

I am reading a cookbook right now, actually. All right.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

That's right, because you're a cooking person.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

I am a cooking person, and I'm reading a vegan southern-styled cookbook.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Wow, that doesn't even seem to be a thing. Vegan and Southern.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

It's just had a chicken fry, some tofu, so.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

I'm all about recreating the flavors that I loved when I was younger in a way that I can eat now. So I'm interested to find that stuff out.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

You are a vegan.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Yes, sir. I try not to be an asshole about it, though.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Okay. Well, we'll keep track of that. I've got a ratings, I've got an asshole rating scale here.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

There's a whiteboard right here.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, the whiteboard. So um I read a book recently called Reincarnation Blues. And if you, I don't know if you like Douglas Adams or know who he is. He's the restaurant at the end of the universe guy. Or Kurt Vonnegut, who's more famous, but they're they they have a certain sort of perspective on the world, which I love. And this guy, Michael Poor, P-O-O-R-E, I think, wrote a book called Reincarnation Blues, which somebody gave me because they said, Oh, Ross, you would love this. And I'm thinking, maybe. And by page 16, I was laughing out loud, and I don't do that when I read. Uh, really fun books about a guy who has to find a way to reach the perfect life after you have 10,000 lives to reach perfection. And he's really close to the end, and he hasn't been able to do it. And he's been so many things like a tree and a worm and all these things, and he's still messing up. It's just a great fun book. Reincarnation Blues. Okay, let's get started. All right. Now, we know relationships are beautiful when they happen, but many relationships end.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Most of us can tell when a relationship is ending, but is it possible to detect the earliest signs of a breakup? Theoretically, if one could catch it early enough, you might be able to interrupt that process and keep the relationship going. So this occurred to me. I was reading an article, which I'll link in the show notes, that some people are saving money. So here's the thesis of the article. Some people, when they have a breakup, feel better by doing retail therapy, spending money.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Okay. So they said, if that's the case, then shouldn't you have a fund for that? Shouldn't you be saving for that? And so I started looking at that, going, well, if you're saving, if you're creating a breakup fund so that you can do retail therapy when your relationship ends, are you really in the relationship?

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Yeah. Why don't you just, I don't know, use that money towards couples therapy? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah. Buy somebody a present or something. No. So the idea is like you don't want to if you find if you feel like you're going to break up, you you need to have that fund so you because a lot of people will spend money that they don't have because they feel bad. And you know, that has a limited appeal anyway. But initially you're like, I'm gonna get a new pair of shoes. Futon! Yeah, I was gonna say car, but I thought that was too much.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Really extreme.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

A futon. Man, I don't like futons. When people say I've got a futon you can sleep on, I never am happy about that.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

A friend staying over at my house deterrent. Because I have a futon. Guess what? I have zero guests.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Right. I'm good.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Get a hotel.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I've got a futon that's really comfortable. No, I'll just sleep on the sidewalk.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

I I was thinking like, wow, if you're saving for a fund, are you really in the relationship? But you know, people think it's a good idea. So we know what a breakup is. And most of us who've been through have you ever been through a breakup in your whole life?

SPEAKER_03 6:19

I have been dumped several times. I'd like to uh You've been dumped? I know.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Oh, if you know Emily, you would think, if you would think, how could that ever happen? How why would anyone I can give you several?

SPEAKER_03 6:35

I was actually reflecting a little bit about why I was dumped when I was younger. And it's the kind of cringy stuff that I think about now. If I caught myself doing it, I'd be like, babe, stop.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

What are you doing? Oh, that's great. So let's tell give me an example of like one of these dumps.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Well, I had a habit.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

I guess that's not how I do it. One of these dumps. One of these breakups. One of these breakups.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Um I had a habit of dating people long distance. It didn't, I didn't realize the pattern was there until uh I was three boyfriends deep, and I was like, wow, this seems to be a constant theme. But uh one of my first boyfriends I had out of high school, he was in the military. And when we did talk to each other on the phone, I would always be like, How are you? No, really, how are you? And it wouldn't just happen every time we talked on the phone, it probably happened at least twice on these phone conversations. And I was so insecure about him and how he thought of me, and I needed that validation. So I was like, But really, how are you? And it just like now the idea I can't something's happening. Oh man, it was just that is such a cringe thing to do. Like, and I can see why that, along with other things, caused him to be like, you're clingy to the nth degree.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Oh, the clingy.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

I was a stage 10 clinger. Oh wow, yeah. I'm I'm healthier now.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

I think of you as extremely healthy emotionally. Whenever I'm around you, I always feel like this is a solid human.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Yeah, like I'm just my um vegetables all day in my brain.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

You don't hear a lot of people saying that. I'm like a vegetable. I'm a vegetable. But what was the source of that?

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Um, it was uh part of it was I um hadn't addressed my codependent behaviors.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

So I wasn't a whole person when I started dating. Um, I didn't understand a lot of those um shortcomings until way later. Yeah. Um, and so I was just bringing a lot of brokenness into the relationship. Right. And um it was exacerbated by the long distance because I never really had a chance to deal with them because when I saw the person in person, we were in this honeymoon phase of we didn't want to fight and everything was great and everything was good for like whenever they were in town or whenever I went to go see them. And we would just squish problems down when we were in town.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

You were in the you were perpetually in what I call the front part of the arc. So you never got to the place where you've actually had to do some recalibration and and you know, worrying about other people's needs and all of that. You just had the fun part.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

So I would say don't do long distance relationships unless unless there's like some kind of a like a circumstance that will be like special, but I just don't I don't really think that that's a great idea for most people.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

It wasn't a great idea for you in any event. Didn't work. No. Okay. So the question I'm asking is are we any good? Is it possible to spot the very beginning? That's what I'm curious about. What would that look like? How do you know it's happening? So here's an analogy for you. If if a breakup at the end is like a house on fire, yeah, can we figure out where it started and when it's starting? Yeah, like we find that cigarette just slowly smoldering on the mattress. I don't know if that happens anymore.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

Who smokes in bed?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Oh, everybody used to. You know a fun fact about um smoking in bed?

SPEAKER_04 10:14

What?

SPEAKER_01 10:15

So people used to smoke in bed and then probably still do, and their mattress would catch on fire sometimes and then burn everyone up in the house. Yeah. And it was a tragedy. But the cigarette companies didn't like that. They didn't want it to be a cigarette problem. So they made it a mattress problem, and that's why they pumped all the mattresses with all of the all the chemicals that were way worse for all of us. Oh we would be breathing in these horrible flame-retardant chemicals, but the bed wouldn't catch on fire. So it wasn't a cigarette PR problem. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Thanks, big tobacco.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Thanks a lot. You're helping us again. But if we're talking about a house on fire, but getting to the beginning, kind of like a fire marshal or an investigator comes in saying, where does a fire start? I can't, is that identifiable? Because if we could identify it when it's happening, maybe we could stop it. That's my thinking. That's what I'm that's what I'm mulling on.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

I want to catch it before it goes too far. So I looked at some articles about breakup stuff. Signals that your relationship is in trouble. And to me, they all seem like late stage things, but I wanted to run some by you.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

There's a growing distance between you.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

That's pretty broad.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah. I mean, that is, as you say, so broad, it's hard to tell without an example whether that's an actually something early or middle.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

I think growing distance has to be in conjunction with something else, because distance in a relationship could be because that person's busy that day, or maybe they're just tired and they don't feel like talking. So how you perceive distance might not necessarily be exhibited by both people.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Right, exactly. And so there's a time element to this. Is it happening once? Is it happening all the time? Are you addressing it? These things aren't talked about in here. But as we know, breakups and humans are complicated and there's many variables. But that's one. Okay. Another one they offer is they, meaning your partner, stops doing things for you. Yeah. I say that is not. I'd say that's more of a middle.

unknown 12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I don't think that's I think by the time that's happening, something's already happened.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Yeah, that's a a comfort thing too. Like maybe when you first started dating, I went to my husband's hockey games all the time. And then, like, as we've been along around each other longer, I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Forget your hockey.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

But I'm actually making that effort again because I realize I enjoy it. I think that he likes me coming and showing up and and screaming at the refs when they're doing something silly.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Which they always do.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Always do.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Well, that's that's a good point. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things you can do when you catch it early, is you go, okay, you know, what is the thing that I want done for me, or what can I do for my partner? Yeah. But I still say that's sort of a middle middle game. They make up excuses for why they can't meet you. Fake excuses. Um that's late. That's that's late stage. That's late stage. They're making up excuse fake excuses.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

They're cashing in currently in their breakup shopping.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Okay, they keep picking fights with you, that's late. They keep picking fights. Come on.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Or or they've stopped picking fights because they just don't care anymore.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

That's a really good one. Yeah. How about they talk about breaking up? I think that's late stage. Yeah. That's how you know. Now, come on, this can't be helpful. If someone's talking about breaking up, uh, it's too late. Yeah. That they've already decided. They've broken up in their mind and they're just trying to get you on board. Yeah. They just want to get a little support for it. Put that out there. They stop responding to your text messages.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

That could be that could be a sign.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

That's pretty late, or they're dead, but it's pretty late. That's a late one. A lot of these are just really late. I'm not going to read all of them. They find fault in everything you do.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

That sounds like marriage.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah. I mean, a lot of these are just like it's way too late. Uh, here's one. There's they're always on their phone. So they're spending time with you, but they're on their phone.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

They could just be addicted. It could be a millennial thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah, I know people in my life that just have to be sitting on their phone, they just have to be looking at their phone. And when you say, hey, what's up? You know, are you in this moment?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

And they're like, oh no, I'm here, I'm listening. I'm doing it. Yeah, it's a habit thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

I this is just how I'm in the world now.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

I check my phone so much, and I hate that I do, but I have it on silent and usually have it face down because I know I check it enough that if I had it flipped over face up, yeah, that's polite. It would be pulling my focus so much more than it already does.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I just think when you're with somebody, you're with somebody, and if you're and if you want to not be with them, then you should go away and sit with your phone. I don't think you should try to do both, but I'm older, so maybe I don't get it. Okay, so yeah, well, news alert. Turn that dial and you think I'm running out of oxygen. A tank, there's always a little at the bottom of the tank. Just pinch the pinch the tube. Yeah, just pinch the tube if you think I'm talking too much. I'm getting sleepy.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

You're turning blue.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Wow, that's a cool shade. The sexual flame is burnt out. I think that's late stage. That's you, that's too late. If you're seeing that, it's not that it's not important. And all of these are things that you can certainly address in therapy or with your partner. I'm not saying they're not important. I'm just saying I'm looking for early stage stuff.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Something that I've heard from a therapist um before is um mirroring, or it I kind of apply it in like an improv theater kind of way. Um the uh yes anding. So, like if I was in one room and like, hey babe, remember that one time I did X, Y, and Z?

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

If he was like, oh yeah, and that was the response, yeah, and that kind of interaction happened more often than not, versus like, hey babe, remember that time I did the X, Y, and Z? He's like, Oh my gosh, I remember, and then he contributes to the conversation. If I'm looking in we're driving around the car and I point out something, I'm like, oh, look at that cute little dog. He's like, Oh my gosh, that dog's so cute. You're right. We should get blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

If that kind of conversation, the yes anding, the the contribution to observations that we have in the world around each other, if that's kind of dwindling, I kind of notice then why aren't why isn't he not connecting in that way?

SPEAKER_01 16:45

They're that your partner is excited about what you're excited about.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

And they wanna, they wanna they want to communicate, they want to join you right there.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

Wherever I am, he wants to meet me.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

And it doesn't necessarily mean that they like that the same way or their reaction is the same, because he could probably also say, that dog, no, those dogs are mean. But it would still be a joining, like we're talking about a dog. We're talking about whether it's good or bad.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Yeah, because I know put my husband's particular communication style is I call it a no until yes kind of person. He likes to know facts and understand things before he can agree. So as long as he's engaging, it doesn't have to be a yes in the conversation. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

So that's a good one. I think that is gonna connect nicely with something I'm gonna say. But first, I'm just looking down this list, and they all these things look like late stage. Your partner's unhappy, they don't enjoy spending time with you. They're always comparing you to other people. She's prettier than you, is the quote from this article. Why can't you be as relaxed as Joe?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

F Joe.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

F Joe who so I uh this are these articles, and there were several I looked at, and they were all the same. They were all like, okay, uh, the house is already on fire. How do you know it's on fire? You're burning up. Okay, you smell the smoke and you can't breathe. To me, that's not helpful. So I was thinking, how when how do you know when it begins, when a breakup begins? And here's what I want to uh run by you and see if you have a different opinion about it. I'm gonna argue a breakup begins, the very, very beginning. The smoldering cigarette is the first pang of disappointment. The first time when you say to yourself, wait a minute, what just happened? The first time everything's going along fine, and the first time you have what I think, just for the sake of this argument, we'll say is a reasonable expectation based on your history with this person, and it's not met. That expectation is unmet, and you go, What happened there? The first time that something that never happened before happens, and it can be a small little thing that doesn't mean anything, or it could be a big thing, but it's that first time because I think, and I'm giving it give you a chance to react to this, but I think what happens early in the relationship when we first start having our expectations not being met by the person who had been meeting them for some time, so it's not like they're out, it's out of the blue, but suddenly they don't do the thing, they don't respond to the hey, look at the cute dog, they don't pick pick you up on time from work, they don't respond to your text, whatever it is, the first time that happens and subsequent times after that. Our orientation, the typical person's orientation is to rationalize that.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Instead of talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Instead of talking about it, or if they talk about it and they're not satisfied with the conversation, they just say, Well, they're having a bad day, or I'm having a bad day, or maybe I'm being unreasonable. Maybe I shouldn't expect them to always do this thing that they always did before. Maybe I because sometimes in these conversations that you have with your partner, your partner starts trying to convince you that your expectations are out of whack.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Right? Yeah. Oh, here's what's wrong with you.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

And in a woman-man relationship, in a cishet relationship, I feel like women who notice those sorts of things and bring them up. If the the man in the relationship isn't ready to receive or have a conversation, it is immediately pushed down as nagging.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

So I a lot of times I haven't even brought something up because I did not want to be a nag. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

And that's a really important observation. It's and and it's this idea, and I I've known men who are too afraid to like push it uh with their female partners. Like they'll do the same thing, but I I agree that it's probably more common for women on average. But you're going along nicely, you're meeting each other's expectations, and then one day something, some expectation goes unmet. I'm arguing that's the signal that the breakup has started. It doesn't mean you're gonna break up. I'm just saying that that's the smoldering cigarette.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Where the disconnect is beginning.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

You better quench it right away.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Quench, can you quench a fire or douse a fire?

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Douse a fire?

SPEAKER_01 21:23

What do you how can it why can't you quench a fire?

SPEAKER_03 21:26

I think you can quench a thirst or slake.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

I've got a thirst for fire. I'm gonna slake it with my quenching juice.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Quench.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Oh so my argument is you're running a huge risk the more of these unmet expectations. You rationalize away or you let slide, or because basically what you're saying is okay, I had this need, I had this expectation. It was based on real life experience with this person. It's not just out of the blue, or it's like, I want to, I want you to rub my feet every day, and you've never Done that before, it's like okay, that's something you should discuss. But if it's something there's a track record for and it doesn't happen, and you subliminate it, you push it down, you quench it down, less and less likely that relationship is gonna work out, even though at the beginning it just seems like, oh yeah, it was kind of weird that he would that he or she they were late picking me up from work. That never happened before, that they were 20 minutes late. That was weird. But they kind of apologize. So, you know, there's they would they says they had a little had a problem at work or their car, you know, the car wouldn't start, whatever the story is. Okay, that's kind of weird, but whatever. And you just kind of push it away or push it down. First pang, your breakup has begun, quench it, or you're running a huge risk. What do you say?

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Um, it's kind of hard for me to think back. I've been in a married relationship for almost 11 years now. Okay. Um, but I do remember those quen those quenchable moments.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Um quenchable moments. Now you're running with it. That's definitely a yes and.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Yes, and um, I do remember there were moments where I remember not getting that good morning text message. And especially how valuable that was to me um when I was dating someone that was not in the area. Um, that was like such a big blow and not hearing from them until like maybe noon. And maybe I text them and it would just be unread for hours.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

And so I immediately like my alarm bells are going off, they don't love me, they might be seeing somebody else.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Um, and that's a very real possibility when you're in a long distance relationship. Um, so I had um definitely those moments. And in those moments, because I was so afraid of abandonment and because I was so afraid of failing that relationship, right? I said nothing.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, that's so I really appreciate you sharing that because that is so right on the money, I think, for so many people is like I don't want to lose this, so I'm gonna subordinate my interests to this relationship. But by doing that, you're the the fissure, the chasm is beginning to widen.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

No, but then I would overcompensate by reaching past that cavern, that chasm, and send an extra text message, or maybe a cute selfie, or maybe I'd write a handwritten note, or do something quote, thoughtful um to engage them more.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Right. But then now there's there the you're you're out of balance. Oh, you're working you're working more than you should be working, and you're overworking the relationship. You're not the other person's not doing their share, but that's a trap. That's a trap that we all fall in. Yeah. And I think one of the things you said early on is about being clingy, is if you know, because I'm saying on the one hand, when these things happen, instead of rationalizing them, you need to address them. It's like, hey, you know, when you don't respond to my text like you used to, uh I don't feel good about that. Like makes me feel unsettled, like maybe something's going on with us right now. Okay. And I want to talk about it. And depending on how the person responds to that, can tell you everything you need to know. Like if they say, Oh crap, yeah, I had no idea. Like it's I find it really difficult to be that responsive, but can we work out a thing? Whatever it is, right? If you become so hyper-vigilant, you can also drive the other person nutty, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Oh, and that was me. I never felt safe enough to bring stuff up in a con a confrontational way.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

So saying what I needed never happened.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah. So that's the key, is being able, this is the thing, this is the where the power is in all relationships, is being able to say exactly what you need and realizing that the other person may not be able to do it or not may not want to.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

And that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

But it's so important to find that out sooner than later. And that's the whole thesis of this of this discussion today for me. Is that I'd rather know if this house is going to burn down, if it's inevitable, I want to know early on so I can get the hell out of here. Yeah. Start looking for a new house.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Well, I think that we're so conditioned in um the American culture, at least, because it's the only one I know, is that it is best to be coupled. It is less than to be singled. And so to be in a a breakup or a failing relationship is the worst thing in the world, and that everything is falling around down around you.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

I mean, emotionally it feels horrible, and you definitely go through some withdrawals of of those feelings that you have when you're in that beginning stages. But I think entering into a coupled relationship knowing that it's okay if you leave the coupled relationship is not how people operate.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

No, it's it feels like you've got so much emotional investment. You've put so much time in and you've had a lot of usually had a lot of good memories and things. And I get it that it's really hard, but I think the one of the things that's been really liberating for me as I go on my own personal journey with all of this is uh is the reality or the uh the recognition on my part that when someone doesn't meet my expectations, they are giving me such a gift. And that's exactly the words, this is exactly how I frame it in my mind. They're giving they're helping me right now. They're telling me that I can't count on them like this.

SPEAKER_04 27:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

They're not this person. I thought they were, I wanted them to be, but they're not that person. And so now I get to choose. Do I want to recalibrate my expectations and be okay with that? Because that's also okay. If you decide, you know what, I don't need them to text me all the time. I'm okay with that. I can live with that. Yeah, I'll put up with that. I know this will be dealt with another way. But if you're not okay with it, then you know, you need to make a choice about it. Yeah. You need to make a choice about what you're gonna do. I had a girlfriend once who was very much text conscious, and she would count the texts that I sent, and at the end of the day, she would either be angry because there weren't enough, or she wouldn't be angry because there were enough. She was never happy, but she would the main thing is she was seeing how engaged.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

She had a number, and that equated to how engaged and how much you liked her. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

So, what I tried to do initially to manage this expectation is when I knew I was gonna be busy. Let's say you let them know. I say, Hey, today is a really busy day. Here's what I'm doing. I'm gonna be like in a meeting, and then I have a show, whatever it is. I'm gonna be like engaged and I won't be sitting on my phone. So, you know, you won't hear from me as much today. And they would say, Okay, yeah, thanks for telling me. At the end of the day, they were still not happy because they said you still it wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

You could see you reframe the expectations. I think that I would operate in that, but I'm a highly anxious person, and that's like my sweet spot.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

What what are you saying exactly?

SPEAKER_03 29:14

Um, if like you can't, if we were in a relationship and you weren't able to communicate in a way that has been normal, right? And just like, hey, I'm gonna be super busy today because of X, Y, and Z. Yeah, and just know that I'm thinking about you, yeah, yeah, blah. I think I would be able to manage my disappointments.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Right. And when you so but it was a gift, right? In a way, because the person was telling me, I can't.

SPEAKER_04 29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

I even if you are even if your phone falls into the ocean and is swallowed by a grouper. Does a grouper live in the ocean? Anyway, wherever the grouper lives and he eats my phone, you gotta get that grouper and you gotta burp your phone or something out of it and make text me. Uh, they also were a very, very jealous person. And now it's so hard, it's so easy to say, and so hard in those early moments to really consider those first unmet expectations, those first pangs of disappointment as being significant. It's so easy to say, oh come on, I'm being ridiculous right now. Just calm down.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

You're asking people to be self-aware, and not everyone has that tool in their tool belt.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Well, and just also what I'm really asking people to do as well is to value yourself. Like whatever your expectations are, that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

The other person may not be up to the job, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your expectations. And, you know, if you keep having relationships and no one's meeting your expectations, that's something to look at too. But if you're pretty good at relationships or you're decent at it and you find that your expectations, which were being met by another person, are not being met, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It means that you, it's a perfect time for you to speak up and be uh in the quenching mode. Yeah. My thinking today again is that if you can figure out early on whether is this a breakup starting? Because when we talked about fill-in-the-blank expectation that wasn't met, I didn't feel like I was satisfied at the end of the conversation. Yeah. I felt the other person became angry, you know. They they belittled my expectation, or they said that I was being ridiculous, or that they try to come up with an excuse, or they don't address it, or they don't yes and it, and they don't do any of those things. You can, that's when you start saving for your retail therapy and you start thinking about going on to the next thing. Yeah. I think people are constantly giving you these little gifts of dissonance, this little unsettled feeling in your gut. And where you go, something's not right.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

I will say when you're in a longer-term relationship, um, say something that's like over five, and maybe you're not married, um, you have that balancing act of like, is this just a crappy season that we're in? Or is this really the beginning of the end? Because like once you kind of get into that marker of uh this is a long-term relationship, is this worth the discussion, the fixing, the emotional labor of right.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Well, then you have a more much more extensive baseline.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

So yes, that's a really sophisticated point. So in an early relationship that's months old, they don't deserve the time to fix. You're big you're well, you I guess what I'm saying is it's unless they're really hot. It's noteworthy, and you should address it if something happens. Sure. Yeah, unless they're really hot. Unless they're really hot. And then you just like whatever, just I'm just hamper on hotness.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

You're pretty.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

You do whatever you do.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

So early on in a newer relationship, it's I think it's critical to address these things. When you have a multi-year relationship and you've gotten into that settled phase where you've uh had many discussions and many experiences, a pang of dissonance here and there doesn't necessarily mean things are on their way out. So that's a really great point. Although I will say, still shouldn't be ignored.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Even if it's like, oh, I know so-and-so is having is under a lot of stress at work and they're not themselves right now. No, they are themselves right now. I've had an argument with people about this position, but I take this position that whatever the behavior is, that is what they do. So I don't excuse people when when when people do things, even if it's because they're under a lot of stress, but they still did the thing. Like just here's a really simple example. Somebody comes home and they kick the dog, and they never did that before, but they had a really bad day and they got a parking ticket and they damaged the car. Yep, they still kick the dog. Yeah. So you you can't say, well, this person never does that. They just did it.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

So you may decide to give some grace to that person for that. I don't know if the dog would, but you can decide, okay, I'm gonna allow a little space for that because I know the person is under a great deal of stress, and that's not how they would normally behave. But you can't say it didn't happen. And for me, that's now part of their repertoire. Yeah. Maybe it only happens, you know, when they're under a lot of stress, but still counts as behavior.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

Yeah. And if people uh I gosh, intentionality, um, whether you're aware of it or not, that's speaks volume. So being intentional in a relationship, whether it's new or whether it's five years old, I think is important. So when you intentionally forget to text somebody because you just don't want to do it anymore, what are you trying to say? Versus like me being intentional in my relationship with my partner and being like, you know, I'm going to clean the kitchen for them. Or I just I can't. I don't have the energy. I might come off lazy, but it is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

That's interesting. And that's the other side of it. I've been talking a lot about the uh person whose expectations aren't being met and how they can take more ownership for getting those addressed early on. But also, if you're in a relationship and you find yourself choosing not to meet the expectations of your partner, that's a gift you're giving yourself.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

You need to ask yourself, why don't I want to do this anymore?

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Yeah, ask yourself why.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Because maybe you can, maybe it's maybe this is heading toward a breakup, and instead of going through months or or longer, sometimes years of discomfort and and causing the other person to be upset and to hound you and to quote unquote nag you or cling. You can take responsibility for your own business and say, Hey, I'm not in this anymore.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

I don't feel like I'm really in this, or I just don't feel like doing what I was doing. And you can say that early on, and then everybody gets to uh work through it, move on, and find the next beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Because look at you, you were dumped by some just so many guys. And then now you're with this great guy. And every and you 11 years you said?

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Uh we've been together for 13 years. 13 years.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

13, 14 years. That's since like series.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

November 2009. But we've been married for coming up on 11 years.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yeah. So that's that's that's a significant. Tap tap no races. What?

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Tap tap no races.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Like, I don't know, something that I always said when I was a kid, like you can't erase it. Like you write it in.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Oh, no erases.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

No, no erases.

unknown 36:36

Wow. I never heard that.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Well, this has been great. I really appreciate sharing this with you. And I hopefully some people who who uh are in a position to notice something, notice a pain, will pay more attention to it. Somebody listening to the show will say, Hey, I'm gonna deal with that.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

Be brave.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Be brave, value your values. Yeah. Is that a thing?

SPEAKER_03 36:58

Yeah. Yeah. Value your values. And guess what? You're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yes, you're definitely gonna be okay. Thank you, Emily. Yeah. I think I thank you, but thank you again. You're welcome. And thank you to everyone for joining us for this episode. If you like what we're doing, you can help us by sharing the show. There's other things you can do. The main thing I'm asking people to do these days is to write us a five-star sparkling review on Apple Podcasts, and we will read it on an upcoming show. And we also like hearing from you, and you can reach out to us on Instagram. People do that. We have chit-chats, and we are very responsive to the people who like this show. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are foolishly breaking up with Emily or just enjoying a quenchable moment, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody. Do you smell like cars? I wish I smelled like cars.