Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
B E W A R E OF "TOXIC POSITIVITY"
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Tracey joins Ross to discuss whether sometimes positive comments to others can do more harm than good. Tangents include: Slim Jims; Friend contracts; sarcastic Jesus; sympathy vs empathy; meat sandwiches; worst kid names ever. Ross tries to get Tracey to explain her fear of clowns.
Notes:
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
It's just really hard for me to to To be a cult leader? Yeah. Well, I couldn't join I know I could be a le I think I could be a leader. Sure. Because I got the Riz.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you do.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and my guest today is a smart, funny, and talented single mom. I bet can beat up your single mom. It's Tracy. Yay!
SPEAKER_03I'm so glad to be here. I could totally beat someone up.
SPEAKER_00No question about it. And we are glad that you're here. We're glad that everyone is tuned in to this episode. We welcome you. Consider us your family. You can pull up a chair and hang with us anytime. You are welcome. You don't have to shower or shave or even wear good clothes. You just sit with us in those stretchy pants. Your soft pants? Soft pants. That's right. Jamie told me about the difference between soft and hard pants. Soft pants. Bring your soft pants. This is a soft pants kind of show. In fact, if you're in hard pants right now, you better just get rid of them because this show will not make sense to you unless you're in soft pants. So, but we are glad you're here. Share the show if you can. That that really helps us. We really appreciate it. We're trying to grow our little community. Tracy, we know that many of us are bombarded by positive thinking, self-help, clever aphorisms, cries of you got this. Stay positive. Better days are on their way. Each day provides its own gifts. All our dreams can come true. You can have anything you want if you just work for it.
SPEAKER_03Manifest it.
SPEAKER_00If you have the courage to pursue your dreams, it's always darkest before the dawn. And one of my personal favorites, everything happens for a reason.
SPEAKER_01Oh, mm-mm.
SPEAKER_00But I was reflecting on whether sometimes a happy, positive response to our difficult situation does more harm than good. Maybe sometimes we just need to hear someone say, Hey, your life really sucks right now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like it sucks out loud.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because otherwise it's so dismissive.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes we don't got this. This thing that we're wrestling with, the struggle, we don't got it.
SPEAKER_03No, and we don't have to.
SPEAKER_00So I ran across this concept. This all came to fruition for me. This came to a head for me because I was reading along and it was just one of these, like I think it was a book review, and they mentioned toxic positivity. And I've never heard that term before. Have you?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Okay. As a therapist, you would have heard it.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's also been a thing. Like it's been a thing the last few years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I missed out on it. Toxic positivity.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00So one person described this as an attempt to put a band-aid on a bullet wound.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You wouldn't come up to a homeless person and say, You got this.
SPEAKER_03You know, people do kind of though.
SPEAKER_00But that is that appropriate? No. You wouldn't visit someone in hospice care and say, it's always darkest before the dawn. But people do.
SPEAKER_03I know. You know what? It's our own discomfort with discomfort. And we want it to stop. And so we say those things so that we don't feel the feelings of that other person's pain. And then we put the burden of that other person to just handle their pain over there so we don't have to deal with it.
SPEAKER_00Man, I'm telling you, that's why you're on the show. You just summarized my entire thought process on this thing. It isn't about them, it's about making it's creating a nice little safe space for ourselves. Yes. So if we can jolly our way through this little uncomfortable interaction with somebody, somebody just gets fired, you're not going to say, Well, everything happens for a reason. Except we do. I know, but it's that we're trying to just kind of can I make this go away from me?
SPEAKER_03From me. Get it away from me.
SPEAKER_00Let me put some butter on this or some sugar. And then I don't really have to be present in this very difficult moment. Right. But these positive expressions that we get can be really, I think, can be caustic. You know, they can be. They can grind on us. And and you know, there's this religious positivity that I encountered when I was younger, this Christian, in particular, positivity. And I will confess there was a time in my life when I was about 20, early 20s, and I really felt like I wanted to embody that. I wanted to, I wanted to be one of these positive Christian people. You know, that was at a time when I was really trying to make faith, organized faith, work for me in my life. And everybody who was doing that were these super positive people. And I knew deep inside that that wasn't me.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00That I'm I'm angry and bitter.
SPEAKER_03But I want to You have a full range of feelings, is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I go from anger on one side to bitterness on the other. It's a full range.
SPEAKER_03I've seen you in joy and mania.
SPEAKER_00She's seen me in mania. And let me tell you, the cover charge was out of this world. All right, sorry about that. So um, yeah, so I there was a time in my life where I truly, I'm not joking, really wanted to be like that, but I couldn't make it work. You know, and when I think about it, I we are taught that Jesus, yeah, you know, in the Christian religion, Jesus, the well, we're not even taught this. We're we're it's implied that he was a positive person. Well, we have no information about this.
SPEAKER_03I my guess is that as a human, he he was just regular. Yeah, he I think he probably had a full range of feelings.
SPEAKER_00He probably had a full range of feelings. Also, he could have been a jerk.
SPEAKER_03He could have been he could have been sarcastic, he might have been really arrogant.
SPEAKER_00Look at look at what his life was going from town to town, right, saying the same junk over and over again. Love your neighbor, and then dealing with people, because it wasn't like this was uh old information, they were hearing it for the first time. This whole idea of monotheism, everybody was used to having multiple gods and doing sacrifices. He's saying you got one God, you got to love your neighbor. So, I mean, he was bringing new information, and just think of the question. I mean, he would constantly be questioned, like, what are you talking about? Now what now? One God, now who?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, love. Why should I be nice to Jim? He's awful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my neighbor's a bum.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm gonna stab him later.
SPEAKER_00And I do covet his wife. I do, and his ass. Yes, and I'm not and you're telling me I can't? I mean, coveting is that's what else do I got to call it? What else do I do? I live in a dirt hut.
SPEAKER_03I gotta covet.
SPEAKER_00Let me covet something. You mean I can't covet anything? What happened?
SPEAKER_03I spent a lot of my day coveting.
SPEAKER_00If I am I going to hell for coveting my neighbor's ass, then I really have nothing to live for right now. So the thing is, we don't know what Jesus was like or what he did the first 30 years of his life, but we do know he busted up a temple when he got mad. Yeah. So we know he had a temper.
SPEAKER_03He had a full range of feelings, like all of us do if we are allowed to express them.
SPEAKER_00He might have been a bully. We don't know.
SPEAKER_03We don't know.
SPEAKER_00He could have been a schoolyard bully. A lot of people will not allow themselves to think any bad thoughts about Jesus. But as you say, if he's a regular person, I bet he bullied a couple of kids. He's just a person. He bullied a couple of kids. Totally. How about when somebody, I mean, this thing I know, well, I won't even I won't even preface. I'll just say when people come up and say, smile, oh what does that do to you?
SPEAKER_03Well, it makes me stabby.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you want to stab him.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I I didn't think a good bit of anger that comes up.
SPEAKER_00And but what is that for if as a because I think Because it's so invalidating. Traditionally, men say this to women, right? Traditionally, and what is so irritating about that from your perspective?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I can guess perform for me.
SPEAKER_00Perform, that's such a great word. Yeah, perform for me.
SPEAKER_03Monkey so that I'm yeah, monkey.
SPEAKER_00Doll, doll, baby.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're mine. I have ownership over you.
SPEAKER_00Oh man.
SPEAKER_03You need to perform for me.
SPEAKER_00Perform for me. Oh, that that's even worse than I was thinking. That's a great way to put it. Yeah, and um, I just think it is so and people have said it to me. Sure. Not as often. And but it's but it's in my case, sometimes the way it hits me as not perform for me, but it's kind of like you need to be different to make me more comfortable. Comfortable. I like it.
SPEAKER_03No, there's a really great book called Running on Empty by a woman named Jonice Webb, J-O-N-I-C-E, Webb with two Bs.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03And the whole book is about identifying what the cultures and beliefs and values of your original family were around emotions.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Most of us grew up in families where um we were told our emotions were a burden for our parents, and that we should handle them. Yes. And not put anything negative in the laps of anyone else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So then we're taught that um when other people have emotions, that that should be uncomfortable for us, and that they should be dealing with that over there and not have me have to deal with it. So when your mother dies, you should get over your grief pretty quick. Like, when are you gonna be done with that? So that I can stop, so I can be like, Well, you know, the light will shine again. She's in a better place now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Instead of being like, Well, that just hurts.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03No wonder you're in pain.
SPEAKER_00People are in a hurry for us to get over our stuff, our trauma, our grief. Like, when are you gonna be done with that so that we can just hang out and I don't have to deal with I don't want to deal with your feelings.
SPEAKER_03Because we don't want to deal with our own, because most of us and our society were given the message that we're supposed to perform and put on our most comfortable outfit, emotional, emotion outfit for others. So when we go out in the world, other people don't have to deal with it with it.
SPEAKER_00And I I would I I would guess you would agree with this, but I'll ask that. Don't you think that most people aren't when they when they are aren't when they're saying those positive, happy thoughts to us, they are not actually intending any ill will, they're not being malicious, they have no clue what to do.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think they just know they feel uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and the whole toxic positivity thing then gives the message that if you are feeling negative thoughts, there's something wrong with you. So shove those down because if you don't, your life is never gonna be all, you know, butterflies and rainbows and unicorns, and you're in charge of that. And there's something wrong with you if you're having all those negative thoughts. So shove them down.
SPEAKER_00Now, I'm guessing as a therapist, you probably have some go-to phrases, and I know what one of them is. You gotta sit in your discomfort. You're just gonna have to sit in that discomfort. You may not say it that way, but I've heard you say something like that before.
SPEAKER_03I s what I one of the things I say, because I truly believe it, is I wonder what that's trying to tell you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, what I say to people is whatever that feeling is, keep chasing it.
SPEAKER_03Get curious.
SPEAKER_00Don't push it away. Don't push it away, chase it, follow it, see where it goes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So this idea of um we I think we've talked before about the idea of uh um internal family systems. So like there's all these parts of you inside, right? Right. So one of the things I say is like, oh, I wonder what would happen. What if you brought that feeling up on your lap and asked it and gave it a hug and gave it a blanket and a snack and thought of it as a small child, what would happen?
SPEAKER_00Give it a slim gym.
SPEAKER_03Give it a slim gym, right? A slim gym is but be like, oh, come on along with me. Like cop up in my lap. Let me give you a hug. Oh, that's so painful.
SPEAKER_00I think if some of my traumatic feelings had a slim gym and I would feel better.
SPEAKER_03Totally. Give them a slim gym.
SPEAKER_00I think some people don't realize they're being tox toxic, toxically positive. They're not they're not hurting us with their positivity. They're not trying to do that. Sometimes they just don't have other tools, uh, ways to deal with people's upset. They don't know what to do, they feel uncomfortable, they have their own anxieties, probably brings can bring up bad feelings for them that they haven't processed their own mini traumas and big traumas, and like I've never really processed that. How am I gonna help you process? And it just feels very burdensome when someone is struggling emotionally or physically, I'll even say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think you know, in those situations, it's normal to try to latch on to some aphorism or some just positive saying to kind of let people know, hey, you know, I'm with you, like I support you, I have feelings for you, and we just don't know what to say. But also, I also agree with you. So that's the good news. The bad news, I also agree with you that we uh I think sometimes do it just because we want to minimize it in terms of how it's affecting us. Like, I don't want to carry this today. All I did was ask you how you're doing.
SPEAKER_03Right, and then you gave me all of that.
SPEAKER_00I didn't want a real answer.
SPEAKER_03Well, and not only that, like what are you doing putting that in my lap? That's not our social contract.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's not our deal. We're supposed to say nod each other, nod to each other in the elevator, make an innocuous weather statement, the door opens, and you get the hell out. Right. And and and so when I say how are you doing, you're supposed to say fine, how are you doing? I'm doing fine, I'm okay, I'm good, not you know I'm terrible.
SPEAKER_03How are you? Terrible. Thanks for asking.
SPEAKER_00I've been crying over my sink while eating old pizza under a 40-watt bulb. Yeah, you don't want it's like uh what do I do with you?
SPEAKER_03You broke our deal, you broke the social contract.
SPEAKER_00People ask me how I'm doing, and I know they're just it's not someone who I actually know, they just were acquaintances. I always just say medium.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00I'm doing medium, and they're like, here are the responses I get. They either say, medium, yeah, I like that. I'm gonna start saying that, uh-huh, or they say, medium, well, why not good? Right. You know, why not great? I medium is good for me because if I'm too high, then I'm you know, cruising for a bruising, and if I'm too low, then I'm you know, I'm knuckle scraping and drooling out of my mouth. So medium is just where I need to be. It's just nice and even, cruising through, right, doing my thing, right? Too high, not too low. And they're like, okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I say regular.
SPEAKER_00I'm regular. Well, that sounds biological.
SPEAKER_03It does. It does. Now that I've said that out loud, yeah. I'm regular. Life is exactly as it should be.
SPEAKER_00Life is as is it should be.
SPEAKER_03I had a client the other day, she was having feelings about something in her life, and she said, Um, I've been giving my I've been timing how long I can cry. And I was like, okay. She's like, so how long should I cry? How long should I be sad about this? How long is it okay to be sad about this?
SPEAKER_00That's a great question.
SPEAKER_03And I said, Um, well, what if it was okay to be sad about it forever?
SPEAKER_00Boom. Boom.
SPEAKER_03I was like, it sounds like something that's worth just being sad about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's uh that you know, giving yourself permission to feel all your feelings as long as you need to can also be a pathway or a door opening to healing. Yeah. Instead of you're trying to push it down and and press it away and get over it. Right. It's like, why don't you just swim in it for a while? Just take a couple of laps and see how it feels.
SPEAKER_03Or just learn to experience how it feels to just have that feeling be part of your existence.
SPEAKER_00And now are you going to be giving out your client's name and phone number? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And we'll put it in the show notes.
SPEAKER_00We'll put it in the show notes all of Tracy's clients and their contact information.
SPEAKER_03And the show notes and their diagnosis.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and people it's probably illegal, but we haven't tested it. It's one way to let's try it. Let's find out if how big the reach of the show really is and who's listening to it.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's not the first time I've had that conversation, but I thought it was just a very black and white one the other day, right? Where she was like, How long is this okay?
SPEAKER_00I think it's great. Forever. Yeah, it could be forever.
SPEAKER_03Like that doesn't mean you cry uncontrollably forever, because that's not going to happen.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_03But if it bubbles up, like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It just changes who for me when I hear something like that, it's a a very subtle way of telling someone, you're in charge of this.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00There's no rules. No. Society's not in charge of it, your family's not in charge, your friends aren't in charge, your lover isn't in charge, your children aren't in charge. Nobody's in charge of how you feel your feelings and how long you feel them and how what that means for you and how that manifests. Nobody's in charge of that but you. And that I think we sometimes forget that because we're so used to, as you say, managing all this stuff for other people. It's like, how long am I allowed to do this? Well, you could just do it forever.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because you get to decide.
SPEAKER_03Totally. You know the movie Inside Out, the animated Pixar movie Inside Out?
SPEAKER_00I can't remember that one.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh, it's so good. It is exactly this. So the idea is that there's this kid, I think she's 10 or 11, and her family moves um to a new town, and things are not going great for her. She doesn't feel good about it. Her parents are struggling, like, you know, it's bumpy. Moving is bumpy.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03And so what you get to see is the kid in her life, and then you get to see the emotions and all the things that are happening inside her head. Oh, that's fun. Joy is the main character, and she wants to run, and she's played by Amy Poehler, and she wants to run everything. Joy is like the one that has to, and then there's sadness, and sadness, Joy does not want sadness to be part of this or anger.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03And, you know, the what it turns out, it's like, of course, the movie does its thing and shows you that actually we need all the emotions to have a full life. And there's these little balls that are called like I can't remember what they call them, but they're like memory balls or something. And um, they just are they try and have just one feeling in them. And then at the end, what they discover is that like actually memories need all the feelings in them. So each life experience has all the feelings, and all the feelings are valuable. I think that's such an example of like how toxic positivity gets in your way because the burden of like, why aren't I happy? Why can't I just feel joy? I only want to feel joy. It's like, well, because that's not part of being a person.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03We have all the feelings all the time, they're always all with us, and the ones we try and shove away are just gonna bubble up. Like you can't, you know, that they're gonna create problems. Then we put happiness up on a pedestal, and that's so unfortunate. I talk to parents all the time, like, I just want my kids to be happy. I'm like, well, that is quite a burden to put on them.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's what happens uh during the holidays.
SPEAKER_03Oh man.
SPEAKER_00We want this to be such a magical time for these kids, whatever holiday you you uh celebrate. You put so much, or it's like when you take a kid to an amusement, expensive amusement park, it's like you're gonna have fun. This is gonna be gonna kick your eyes ever.
SPEAKER_03You're gonna start liking this right now.
SPEAKER_00So much pressure. I've worked so hard to make this perfect for you. And all the kids hearing is I'm in trouble, and it's something's wrong with me if I don't love this. Yeah, this is the worst time of my life. When is it gonna end? And then you wonder then you wonder why your kid won't come home for Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER_03Right. And why, and that's the parent saying to the child, perform for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, smile.
SPEAKER_03Smile, perform for me, be happy, eat your turkey. We're at the happiest place on earth. Be happy.
SPEAKER_00I made tacos for Thanksgiving this year.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_00It was a hit. That sounds great. So we want to minimize this stuff, so we we try to put a positive spin on it. We want to reduce the amount of emotional energy that we have to devote to this problem. Like, do I really want to sit with this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We want to reduce the amount of time that we have to spend in this these moments with people, you know, these uncomfortable moments. I when I'm in a situation where someone is telling me something that's obviously not just a minor problem that they're suffering from something. My go-to is I am so sorry to hear that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because that's how I feel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, and if I don't know them very well, that might be all I say. It's just that that sounds really hard, or I'm I just feel sorry to hear that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I'm letting them know, hey, I'm hearing you, I know this sucks. I'm sorry it's happening to you. We don't really have the kind of relationship where I'm gonna go over to your place and we're gonna do a deep dive.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, I don't know you well enough. You know, if it's somebody I know very well, it's a different thing. But if it's like, you know, it's just like wow. And sometimes I think, and you can confirm or disconfirm, but I think. Some people just want to know that you're hearing them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that you have empathy for them. Not not they don't want any advice about how it's going to go. They're not asking you for a nice rosy uh perspective on their life. They don't want to know that this has happened for a reason. Who what's the reason? What kind of reason? I just got fired. What's the reason? Oh, because one of the door closes, another one opens. Well, suck on that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I got no paycheck.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00There's no reason here.
SPEAKER_03My my go-to is I'm a big fan of when you don't know what to say, just observe. Or um like narrate. Narrate. Narrate kind of. So I'll say, like, um, oh, that's just painful.
SPEAKER_00So um instead of I'm sorry to hear that. Are you saying it's painful for them or painful for you? Or just that idea is painful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like, oh, well that that's really painful. Oh, that just hurts.
SPEAKER_00Wait, and if this person is not one of the clients who will be named in the show notes, it's just some like a friend.
SPEAKER_03It's just a friend. Because I I'm a big fan of not apologizing for things that I didn't do anything about. So I'm I'm I'm really, really careful about sorry.
SPEAKER_00You're hearing the sorry as an apology that is owning it.
SPEAKER_03It just carries a connotation, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that. Yeah, I can't. But it carries a connotation for me, and then there's like a then there's like a responsibility I'm taking versus just offering an observation of the pain, like, oh, that is so painful.
SPEAKER_00What if I said, oh, that sounds really difficult?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that.
SPEAKER_00So when I'm saying I'm sorry, I don't feel like I'm taking any ownership. I'm saying I'm sorry, it's more like an expression of empathy, like, hey, I recognize this is difficult for you. Right. But instead of saying I'm sorry, because it's not true that I'm I'm sorry that it'd be like someone you see someone have a car accident and I didn't cause it, but I say, I'm sorry that happened to you.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00I'm sorry that your car's damaged.
SPEAKER_03Instead, I just say, like, oh that sucks.
SPEAKER_00Your car's ruined.
SPEAKER_03Your car's ruined.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I that's good feedback for me.
SPEAKER_03That's painful. Well, that's gonna be an inconvenient thing to deal with the next few weeks.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's gonna blow some major chunks.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, pretty much.
SPEAKER_00So I go back to wanting to be this positive Christian person. I never was able to pull it off. I tried for like one weekend at a retreat. Yeah, I tried really hard, but I felt so fraud, yeah, inauthentic. I was posing. It's not me, you know, it's just not me. And part of it is just kind of growing up, you know, with an edge and and being someone who used, you know, comedy and you know, a sardonic wit to protect against the slings and arrows of of life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And just also just, you know, having this sort of uh just that sort of East Coast sensibility, you know, and it's just it's all those things um and other things. It's just really hard for me to to to be a cult leader, yeah. Well, I couldn't join I know I could be a lead, I think I could be a leader because I got the Riz.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you do.
SPEAKER_00I couldn't be a follower. No, I don't think anybody in my family is at risk of joining a cult because we we grew up not trusting anyone, especially anyone who says anything positive.
SPEAKER_03Too much of a critical, too, too much of a critical thinker.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or just critical. But you know, it's like like the worst thing to say to me in a in a like if I go into a store, yeah, which I don't like doing. No, but if I'm in a store and somebody says, this is our most popular model, or this this is really selling well, I automatically don't want it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No matter how much I actually like it.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00It's like, oh, everyone's buying this, I don't want it. There's something wrong with it. Everybody likes this, I don't like anything that everybody likes. And it's just having that attitude. But I think having said that, having said that I come at the world with an edge, I feel like I'm a very positive, optimistic person.
SPEAKER_03You come across that way.
SPEAKER_00I well, thank you. And I feel I feel that way inside. I don't feel like negative about the world or about people. I like people, I like hanging out, I like being part of things.
SPEAKER_03I think more authentic people come across as more positive and open and warm and grounded.
SPEAKER_00But I never say stuff like, you know, it's always darkest before the dawn.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god. We would not be friends. Ross, if you start saying things like that, we'll have to reevaluate our friendship contract.
SPEAKER_00Yes, we'll have to go over the contract. And what an extensive contract it is. What surprised me is not that you put a contract in front of you, but you showed up with a team, a phalanx of lawyers surrounded by lawyers. You I just I still haven't read that thing. It was too much fine pressing. It was like those apps.
SPEAKER_03It's like just scroll through.
SPEAKER_00I just scroll through. Yeah, scroll through and press accept, and then you find out later that you don't own your car anymore. Amazon does.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Those those app things.
SPEAKER_03Oh man.
SPEAKER_00You ever read them?
SPEAKER_03No, I don't. I scroll through and I say yes, and I shouldn't.
SPEAKER_00They basically say you're gonna spend your life on a work farm.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well.
SPEAKER_00And I, you know, farming is cool. Once I realized I was not gonna be that kind of stereotypical positive person, you know, who's rosy and happy all the time. I I mean, I think there's a role for people like me. I mean, there are so many big events in the world where if somebody had just listened to the guy or the woman saying, uh, I don't think so, guys. Right. I don't think this makes sense. I don't think we ought to do that. Yeah, you know, like Pearl Harbor, there were people saying, Hey, guess what? And that that there are happy people were in charge. So it's gonna be fine. It's kind of well, no, there's gonna be fine. No one would do that. Who would do it? 9-11 was the same thing. Bunch of people saying, Watch out. Who would do that? They wouldn't do that, they wouldn't do it. I mean, and and there's a whole psychological concept called groupthink where everybody is so excited to be on the same team that they you know they just move ahead with a bad idea, uh like wet naps and new coke.
SPEAKER_03And new oh, new coke was a bad, bad idea. You remember that?
SPEAKER_00Of course, most people forgot about it. Well, but for years there was something called classic Coke because they came out with new Coke and everybody hated it. Yeah, because it tasted like dishwater, carbonated dishwater.
SPEAKER_02It tasted like Pepsi.
SPEAKER_00So then people, oh, is that what they did? That's what I thought they did. So that's a little sweeter, or which one's sweeter? I don't remember. What about RC Cola? What's going on with them? It's still there. I you know, I haven't tasted R.C. cola, but I gotta tell you something. I think it's better than shasta cola. You ever had that shasta cola? Oh, yeah. That shasta cola. What was going on there? Panta? You ever do that? Oh, yeah. You go down that road?
SPEAKER_03I've done it all. That's a I've done all I've done all the sodas.
SPEAKER_00I've tried them all. Ross, I've done all the sodas. I've done sodas you don't even know about.
SPEAKER_03I like to go in East Coast sodas.
SPEAKER_00East Coast sodas.
SPEAKER_03Remember Tab?
SPEAKER_00Tab?
SPEAKER_03That's my initials.
SPEAKER_00Tab. Oh. Is it? Oh, it is. What's your middle name? Ann. Oh, that's very.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I was born in 1972. So it was either Ann, Lynn, or Marie.
SPEAKER_00You know that the I think it's Social Security. Anyway, the one of the government agencies has kept track. Oh, it's the social security number. Whoever's doing that.
SPEAKER_03Are you asking for my social security number? We'll put it in the show notes. Perfect. And your credit cards. And your client names.
SPEAKER_00And we'll also uh my mother's main name. And we'll anything and your passwords. So I was going to say they've been keeping track of kid names since late 1800s. Yes. I think. Like 1850s on. And you know, it's interesting to look at how every so often it took 40 years for the names to start changing because everybody was either John or Mary. Yeah. For like 40 years. And then people started like going, well, wait a minute, what else can we name a kid? Right. Not John, Mary, or Robert was another one. And John and Mary and Robert are still very, very popular, but over the years, people, you know, would start changing names. And I want to tell you, there's a lot more interesting names now than there was, but there's three that I encountered that are the worst.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00The worst kid names. These are kid names.
SPEAKER_02Go on.
SPEAKER_00Number one.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Dr. Perkins. It's a horrible kid name.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00It's a horrible kid name. Yep.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_00You don't want that in a roll call.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_00Second, chicken schwarma. Horrible kid name. Just not good. Good food.
SPEAKER_03Not a good name.
SPEAKER_00No, it's a horrible name to name a kid. And then third, this is the one that I just don't know what parents are thinking. Sure. Suckles the bitch clown.
SPEAKER_03It's just such a bad kid name.
SPEAKER_00I mean, as an adult, it's fine, but if I don't like clowns. Well, we've learned something new. Why don't you like clowns? They're creepy. Who likes clowns? When did this begin for you? Maybe you should sit with this as comfort. Follow the feelings. See where this takes you.
SPEAKER_03Well, I will say my mother really liked clowns, and that's probably the answer.
SPEAKER_00Oh, wait a minute.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Your mother liked clowns. Oh, yeah. Therefore, you hate clowns.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean that's what I'm saying. Why you know?
SPEAKER_00Did she have clowns? Was she a clown art person?
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_00Did she have clown pictures, paintings of clowns? No. Stuffed clowns.
SPEAKER_03No, none of those things.
SPEAKER_00Was she dating clowns?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Maybe we're you know hanging out at Cirque des LA.
SPEAKER_03If only she I don't know, but I I remember one time I I drew her a picture of a clown to give to her because I was excited about something and wanted to share it with her. And she put it on the refrigerator, and then I because she liked clowns, I don't know how I knew. And then I got really mad at her and I went to the refrigerator and ripped that clown picture up.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00There's no positivity there. That's just laying it on the line.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, you know. I'm not thinking it's not authentic.
SPEAKER_00You're you come in the room and you're like, you know what, you like this? I'm taking it back. I'm taking it away from you because you have behaved badly, mother.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, that's no more clown pictures created.
SPEAKER_00And then you internalize and said, No more clowns for me, Tracy.
SPEAKER_03Uh-uh. And you've created this whole fiction that clowns are scary, but do what I have no actual experience of clouds being clowns being scary.
SPEAKER_00Or clouds.
SPEAKER_03Or well, clouds sometimes. They're dark.
SPEAKER_00So you've never have you did you ever go to a circus where there were clowns?
SPEAKER_03I've been to circ well, yes, I've been to Ringling Brothers once, but as an adult.
SPEAKER_00But did the clowns bother you?
SPEAKER_03None of this is logical. None of my clown fear is logical.
SPEAKER_00But I mean when you think of it like I can't find the root of it. Well, but I'm just trying to find out when it how it comes to how is it a thing that you know that you have when you don't experience it.
SPEAKER_03Well, because I it's an internal experience.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's an internal thing, but you don't have to be confronted with an actual clown or see a clown.
SPEAKER_03No, and if I see them, I don't get like some trauma response. Uh-huh. But I don't seek them out.
SPEAKER_00But you know, the thing is about a clown is if they stare too long, it gets creepy immediately, no matter what their makeup is. If they look at you, those well, that's true of most things. I mean a gerbil was looking at me the other day, and I just didn't like it because it would not break eye contact.
SPEAKER_03Any any one or thing that won't break eye contact. I mean, that's why snakes and sharks are so scary.
SPEAKER_00Well, we're all dealing with it, we're all struggling. And in that, I think there's something powerful uh to recognize that, you know, a couple things. And I've learned this, you know, this is something I've come to late in life, these beliefs. But when you when you encounter somebody who's really struggling, the struggle sometimes manifests as unpleasant behavior.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And I've learned to understand that that person is suffering right now and they can't even hold it together. Right. Like they can't even be in a coffee line. No, they can't be online for coffee and handle their self, they're freaking out because they're suffering.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And I used to just say, oh, they're a bad person, they're a jerk, they're unpleasant. But then when I think of them as someone who's like they're so unable to deal right now that they can't even do basic behavior, right? Then it just changes how I think about it. It does, does it? I still don't like them. I don't like them. I don't like them, but I don't feel like there's something necessarily inherently wrong with it.
SPEAKER_03I call that compassion with boundaries.
SPEAKER_00There you go.
SPEAKER_03Where I'm like passion with boundaries. Right? Where I get to look at that person in the coffee line and go, ooh, that looks so hard over there. They are really struggling. Also, that behavior's not okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Both can be true.
SPEAKER_00Yes, the behavior's not okay, but you you don't they don't necessarily have to be put in that in the list of horrible people.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And that changes the way you deal with them. It changes the way you interact, or even even if you do, because sometimes you just like to do anything. I don't need to do anything. This really isn't about me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You don't even have to get into it. No, you don't. Like save the calories, save those emotional calories for something that really matters.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. No, I think that another thing that we worry about and that toxic positivity tries to shut down is that we all have dark thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We all have dark thoughts. We all have thoughts that we judge as like, ooh, I'm not allowed to say that or feel that or think that. But we all have them and there's nothing wrong with them. So that when they come through, we just get to notice them.
SPEAKER_00Right. Some of the best comedians that I like watching are really good at giving voice to like feelings that seem like they're not allowed, we're not allowed to have. And that's what makes them funny, but that's what makes comedians so important, I think, in the society is it's like, hey, you you let me say these thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We all have. Maybe you don't have this specific one, but you have things like this. Let me say this weird thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you can laugh at it. But the laughing is kind of a recognition of, yeah, that's right. Sometimes we all think this.
SPEAKER_03I think that too.
SPEAKER_00And so you're right. We all have this shadow life, this these dark thoughts, and we wrestle with them all the time. And when the people who are overly positive, I feel like, are suppressing them. So my last question for you is can we really trust these positive people? Are they trustworthy? Well, I think we tend to gravitate toward them and oh, they're so positive. And it's like that to me, it always hear that and I go, Oh, it feels inauthentic. Uh-oh. Can I trust this person?
SPEAKER_03I and it's not positive all the time. Doesn't feel authentic to me.
SPEAKER_00Something's going on there, right? Something's there's something going on. There's something going on in the basement.
SPEAKER_03They're trying to sell something.
SPEAKER_00They're selling something, and maybe this they're selling themselves, but I always just feel a little like I, on the one hand, it's good to have positive spirit, and I as I say, I think of myself as a positive, can-do person. I'm blessed chemically that I don't deal with depression.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, uh unless it's situational. I, you know, I just haven't had to deal with that in my life, and I a lot of people in my life have had to deal with it, so I get a sense of how difficult that is. But I just feel up and ready to go all the time. But I when I hear someone being a little Pollyanish, it just like sets off an alarm bell. Like, what's wrong with this person? Agreed. When are they gonna freak out? When's the other shoe gonna drop? How do I trust? When are they gonna rip my the rip the clown picture off the fridge? Right? Because some of us do that.
SPEAKER_03That's five-year-old me.
SPEAKER_00Five-year-old ripping clown pictures.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, I wasn't getting my emotional needs met.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's wait, wait, that sounds hard. I was gonna say I'm sorry, but I'm now erasing that from my vernacular. Yeah. That sounds crappy. Yeah. That sucks for you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You know, the one I'll put out there, there's this on YouTube. There's um a Brene Brown little short that's sympathy versus empathy. And it's a little animated one that talks about the difference between sympathy and empathy, and it's really great. I I'm not gonna go over it, but go watch it. We have a thing in my family with my children where sympathy is like, hey, you want a sandwich? And empathy is just someone sitting next to the bench with you.
SPEAKER_00What are you talking about? So sympathy.
SPEAKER_03Sympathy is I want to fix this for you. Here, you want a sandwich? Let me give something. Let's fix this, let's make this better.
SPEAKER_00Oh, the fixing. Yes.
SPEAKER_03And the empathy is just I'm gonna sit here with you.
SPEAKER_00Fixing versus just being present with someone.
SPEAKER_03And I and the little animated short does it beautifully.
SPEAKER_00And what's how do they find this?
SPEAKER_03Uh YouTube, Brene Brown, empathy versus sympathy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Although I will tell you, I do tend one of my love languages is food. Is that a love language? Yes. If you give me a sort of act of service. Or it's a gift. I want active sandwich. Yeah. If you give me a meat sandwich, I'm already on my way to get better times.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's a gift and an act of service for someone to do that for you.
SPEAKER_00I feel I fall out of a helicopter and you give me a meat sandwich, I'm up and ready to go.
SPEAKER_03Well, if you were feeling that way and someone said, Hey, can I make you a sandwich? And you would say, Yes, thank you, then that would be something you wanted. But if it's someone that's just like, here, here's some food, here's a donut, here's a thing, let me make this better so we don't have to talk about the thing that's actually going on. Come on, get better.
SPEAKER_00Eat your sandwich, you're a string bean.
SPEAKER_03Yes, things like that.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I think that's a great way to put it. And that was something that occurred to me, and I'm glad you brought it up, is that a lot of times we're trying to fix things so they'll stop getting in our way, intruding into our just little elevator ride. We just don't go there.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But if we just are let people know that we're even just for the moment, we're willing to sit next to them metaphorically, we're willing to be there in that feeling. That's enough. Yeah. You don't have to spin it, you don't have to dip it in sugar, roll it around in molasses and maple syrup, and what else can we dip it in? Honey, sure.
SPEAKER_03Like, throw some marshmallows on there.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's been great talking to you about toxic positivity, and I don't mean that in a toxic way. And thanks to everyone for being here. We appreciate it. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are hanging out with sarcastic Jesus or just making a political statement by ripping a clown picture off your mother's fridge, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Bye, everybody.
unknownBye.
SPEAKER_00Couldn't get an inside job, and I've talked to you about this before. I could not get an inside job when I was a teenager. Yeah. Just couldn't get one. I always wanted one, just wanted to be inside. Wanted to be inside. I wanted to be clean inside all my jobs, outside jobs, only outside jobs.