SPEAKER_00 0:00

I you know, uh the human body is disgusting, guys. There's there's uh sometimes there's smells that have nothing to do with the person.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today's guests are my friend Amy.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Hello, Amy, hi Rob, and Rob.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Hello, Rob. Hello, Rob and thanks very much for being here. So today we're gonna look at the phenomenon known as cuddle parties. A cuddle party basically is going to a meeting with mostly strangers and engaging in consensual touching, cuddling, rubbing, buffing, but usually no sex. Did you, Ross, did you say buffing? I said buffing, uh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Okay. Well, well, first of all, we'll have to we'll circle back around what buffing is, but continue.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's that's important to know what all these things are when you're going to a cuddle party because you need to ask for them or decline them depending on your mood. Um now, the first time I heard about this whole cuddle phenomenon was several years ago, and someone that I knew had started working as a cuddling professional. And what that means is she she would hire herself out, I think it was about $60 to $80 an hour.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

And you could, she would cuddle you. And at the time I thought it was um weird. Sure. Um, but uh now uh it's more of a thing, and it's not so weird. And I should say that we are recording this, uh, we're still in a pandemic situation. Hopefully it's getting better, but we're we're definitely still in it, and the world's still in it. And so if you're listening to this in the post-pandemic future, um, as you listen to this podcast, try to remember what it's like to be in it. And one of the things it was like was you don't get to do a lot of cuddling. So the whole idea of a cuddling party actually sounds pretty awesome to me right now.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

I hate this topic. We'll get into it, but I don't like it. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

You don't like it. No. Well, you gotta you can't leave me hanging now.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Oh my god. Well, I mean, I I'm I'm sure, uh, dear sweet Ross, you've got some more uh bits of uh trivia and information about it, but what you've said so far, I mean, you can't see me right now, but my hands are crossed, and like most of the things you're saying, I'm just looking at the mic, just shaking my head, like no, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

I'm picturing it. I'm picturing it in my mind. It makes me uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

I can I can imagine that it, I mean, it it is a little strange at first to think about it, especially when you think about people in positions known as spoon drawers.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

I am a child. That just makes me laugh.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Puppy piles. Yes, and my personal favorite, human trains.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Nice, it's a real thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

So, Amy, um, and I feel like I'm gonna leave Rob just on the edge of his seat for a minute, clutching his hands and sweating because I do want to find out what what's bothersome about this. But Amy, have you ever been to a cuddle party?

SPEAKER_02 4:00

I have not been to a cuddle party, but I love the idea, honestly. And I'm not I'll be I'll be clear. I'm not a huge cuddler, but I do like to cuddle.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

So So I sent you I sent you some pictures of some of the popular positions.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

And uh I'm wondering which one which one do you like the most, or would you was your go-to cuddle position, and which one would you not do?

SPEAKER_02 4:31

And I like to be the little spoon, and I like I like to spoon. I think that's a comfortable spot.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

So the spoon is where both just imagine two spoons nesting together. So that's most people know what that is. So that that one would be your go-to, you think?

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yes. Or there was one, and I want to call it all I can think of is hero stance, but that's not the right one, where you kind of lay on um the person's chest.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Yeah, there's a half spoon, there's a sweetheart cradle where it's kind of one person kind of resting their head on somebody.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

I do not like the butt-to-butt. No. Oh, I thought you were gonna say the butt pillow. I don't like the butt pillow either. Pretty much no butt stuff. Lot of trust.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Rob, I was gonna say, I was thinking you would be a butt pillow guy. And just for the audience, the the butt pillow is where one person is lying uh, you know, face down with their butt exposed, not without clothes. I mean, you can do it without clothes, but their butt is there as a pillow, and the other person uh lays across, puts their head on the person's butt like it's a pillow. So it's called the butt pillow.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Just as a point of note, uh, and and the dear sweet listeners are can't see these pictures, but in all these pictures, there's and there's several pictures here, everyone has these great smiles on their face. However, the butt pillow guy, you can actually see teeth. Like he's like grinning so much that you see teeth. This is the one who has someone laying on his butt. And I I just it's just I don't like it.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

I don't like it. But Rob, which one? What's your you must have a go-to position. Or are you saying you never do it?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

I mean, okay, we with my loved one, of course I love to cuddle. But you started off saying, hey, this is with strangers, like this is a stranger party, right? So at home, I'll do any of these, not the butt pillow. Like, even then, I don't I don't I have trust issues, I guess. Yeah. But like I like a nice spoon, depending on where my arm is and when it's gonna go to sleep, you know? Yeah. So uh if I was to go to, I was forced to go to a cuddle party, it would just be butt cheek to cheek. Like, I don't wanna just just your back's to my back, we're fine.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Oh, so you would do butt to butt.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Yeah. No, I mean, that is like out of all these pictures, that's the least amount of contact.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

I I don't you don't even have to look at the person. I like a lot of these positions. There's a spoon and the half spoon. Uh I don't mind the butt cheek to cheek. Uh, there's one called the honeymoon hug where you're like mouth to mouth and you're really close. And that's for some I have to really like that person before I want to get into their whole mouth situation.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Um, so that's for somebody that I really, really like. But a lot of these are pretty good. Some of them seem a little passive, aggressive, like the leg hug. It's like, I'll put my leg on you, but I'm not really in this.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

You know? And um, I started wondering if like relationship, if you're in a relationship and you stop cuddling, is that like the canary in the coal mine for the end of the relationship? Because can you think of a relationship that's going well, but you don't cuddle at all?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Uh yeah. I mean, there's reasons.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Maybe I mean a romantic relationship, not with your barber.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

I understand.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Oh, I'm getting my haircut wrong.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

As a person who loves affection uh in a relationship, uh, yeah, maybe, maybe. Like if there was no more of that, you know, I I don't know. I'd have to deep dive the whole relationship, but maybe that could be the canary.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

The research is um that humans need cuddling, like we need it. And uh the research suggests that people in relationships where they do cuddle report more satisfaction overall. Um, and here's the cool drug part of it. Cuddling releases a hormone called oxytocin, not oxycontin, oxytocin, which leaves you feeling loved and connected. So the more you cuddle, the closer you feel to the person you're cuddling. There's more. Cuddling boosts the immune system. Nice, it reduces inflammation and it decreases your stress and the release of stress hormones like cortisol. Well, um, is that exciting, Amy?

SPEAKER_02 9:18

It's very exciting. It also explains why I'm so inflamed when I'm single.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Oh, yeah. This must be on on average, this these facts. This is on average.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

Well, there's but but there's more, Rob. Okay. Um but wait, there's more. Uh it foster touch fosters emotional communication, uh, even between strangers. So while you're sitting there butt to butt at a cuddle party, you are communicating emotionally with a stranger. It lowers your blood pressure. Rob, you might be interested in that as you're clenching and unclenching your hands, listening to this.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Oh my god! It's act I'm actually doing that right now. I know, I know. I hate it.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

And um, and by the way, even holding someone's hand can uh lower your blood pressure. Wow, and it also relieves anxiety, may even reduce pain. The research shows that contrary to popular opinion, men not rob like to snuggle. Yeah, they like to cuddle.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Again, I like to snuggle with someone I am romantically involved with, someone that I have that intimacy with. I don't like, and I I hope this this conversation gets to this going to a house, hotel room, whatever with strangers and just having a puppy pal. Like I just ugh.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

How about how about the a spoon drawer? Would you go for that? Or a human train? Um, well, let's get to it. Let's get to the party scene. So um I'm surprised that nobody asked me if I'd been to a cuddle party.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

No, I was almost asked you a minute ago. Have you been to a cuddle party, Ron?

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Please say yes. I have. I have. But I will say it was uh a little earlier, uh, before it's become the substantial mega force that it is in the world. Uh, so we didn't have a moderator, we didn't have a facilitator, which is an important part of it.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

What?

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Um, but it actually was uh fun. And the position that we all decided to use was the human train.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

How many of you were there? What were about 15?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Oh, wow. All right. Are there safe words, Ross? Like you there's a moderator. I guess he's not or she is not on, they're not on the hug. Like they're just like monitoring the hug, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Right, right. So let's let's talk about how it how it works now. Because it's come a long way since I was involved in it.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

And it was more of a Can you be specific about like how many years ago it was at least?

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Like generally, uh this was uh early part of this century. Oh yeah. Well, I wouldn't have remembered if it happened then, but um, but yeah, it was the early part of the century, and this didn't really start really becoming a thing until like oh four or oh five. Okay, and then it's it's now even more of a thing where you there in most cities there is a cuddle party waiting for you. So basically, there you'll pay anywhere from maybe as low as 25 bucks to I gotta pay money to do this.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Oh you don't want to go to a cheap cuddle party. Like if somebody's like, give me four bucks and we'll cuddle for a while. You don't want to go to that party. You want to pay.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

And if the party's behind a bowling alley, that's another clue.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

I have some questions before we get even before we get to the party. I assume that you went with a uh someone you were uh romantically involved with, or did you just get like, were you at the coffee shop and says, hey man, there's a cuddle potty who can give you a flyer? Like, how did you even how did this get on your radar?

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Those are the only two choices for confidence. So what happened was it was um a group of work acquaintances. There was no romantic, no one was romantically involved with anyone there. We spent the afternoon in water and mud, and then we ended up at somebody's as part of the cuddle party?

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Like somebody was like, We're gonna go sit in water and mud. I'm not judging, I'm just clarifying.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

I might be.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

And and then we're gonna is that it was all it was like a retreat.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Um, well, yeah, it was sort of like a work uh retreat that started with a uh a river float. So we were in bathing suits, floating down a river and uh enjoying a beverage, and then we ended up in some mud, you know, because it's muddy and it's wet. And then I don't remember the transitional part of this, and that may have something to do with the beverages that were being served, but there was some point the group transitioned to someone's apartment, and we got to the apartment, and someone suggested we do a uh a cuddling, and so we all uh, you know, we we sat down like in a long line and started sort of caressing and massaging the person in front of us. So the person at the very and then we would rotate because the person at the front of the line gets a freebie and doesn't have to do anything, and the person at the back of the line gets nothing.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

So you have to rotate.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

But I was when this, when this, I mean, and you've you said something key here, which there was some uh beverages, uh adult beverages involved. But so you're uh you're on the water, you're muddy. Hey, have you guys heard of a cuddle party? No, Frank, I haven't. Like, how how did you like you were just sure, let's do it. I like new experiences. Like, that's what that was your reaction?

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Well, it was an organic thing. It just sort of happened organically, organically, as I said, it wasn't planned and we didn't have a facilitator, which is important. So I'm not recommending this to the kids that you just do it without any kind of rules or structure, but we just sort of went for it and kind of explored it on our own. And I gotta tell you, it was pretty awesome. So laying there muddy, getting rubbed on, rubbing other people. It was pretty fun.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Did it was anybody did it escalate beyond cuddling for folks?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Did it did it did it turn into an orgy, Ross? Is what Amy wants to know.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

That's my question.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Well, you know, one of the for a guy, one of the risks of stranger cuddling is getting into a bone situation. Yes, right. And that's pretty normal. Sure. You're cautioned about that, that that's normal and not to uh at a at a responsible cuddle party, you're you're you're cautioned not to become alarmed if that happens, but at the same time, uh just relax and you know try to maintain.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Think about baby.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

So uh but at mine, no, it didn't it didn't escalate beyond that, but when you're in the middle of that, you start to go to a different place, and uh probably anything would have been possible. But at a re at a legit cuddle party, um there are rules um about that. Yeah so you paid your money, yeah. Um you're most times you sh people come and change into or show up in pajamas or adult adult onesies, something soft and cuddly. Got it. Something comf something comfortable. There's 20 or 40 people. Often, if you're new, then you don't know anybody, or maybe you bring somebody with you, but um, but mostly you don't know anybody. Yeah. Um, they're not necessarily balanced as to uh gender identity, so could be more one kind versus another kind. You just you don't know how it's gonna be. And people go for different reasons, like they report going because they feel lonely, or they've had a recent loss in their life and they just want some human contact, or they've had a recent breakup and they're trying to do, you know, a psychological re-entry into the world. Or uh, and sometimes people just want to have touch, and it's and this is a quote without the disappointing sex. That's not which is like, yeah, I see cool.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I see the benefits of all the things that you just said. Like I was listening to and I was like, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, okay, sure, sure. Not for me still. Like I just uh like there's I have so much just reservations just thinking about this. Like I'm already stressed out.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

I'm gonna persuade you by the end of this, once I give you some more idea about how it works. So that there is a cuddle facilitator, and they they've got a certificate in cuddling, and they're the ones that will conduct the session. And um, and so they you know they're a trained professional, and they will usually start the evening with uh ground rules. So they will tell you what is and what isn't allowed, and most of the responsible ones, uh, sex is not part of it, or any kind of heavy petting around the fun areas is like discouraged, like you're not supposed to go there. Although people have been known to leave the party and take care of whatever fun excitement has happened.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Amy goes, uh huh.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

That I think I'm gonna be I'm gonna be frank here. I think that would be my that would be my downfall for the cuddle party. Because it's really an on-ramp for me. I can I can hold hands in public and I'm fine, but if you start cuddling me, yeah, I don't know. Um I'm I'm going down a path and whether you're a stranger. I mean, I not not I wouldn't violate the the um parameters of my relationship. That's not what I mean, but um Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

I it's activating. You find cuddling it's activating.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

I think that's a very polite and mature way to say I'd be turned on if somebody starts cuddling me.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

Right. And so that's expect I mean that happens, and and as I said, some people then you will leave uh the party or meet up later. You know, it is possible um for that, but um but uh a lot of people who do this frequently say that kind of goes away after you get used to the what the experience is really about. It's it's it sort of um stops being an issue, apparently. But this is why the ground rules are so important. And this is one of the cool things, especially around this area of consent, because people uh are in these parties, they first thing they do is they start some exercises where they practice saying yes and no. Um so they just ask each other any random question. Can I cut your hair? Can I come to your house and have a smoothie or whatever? And everybody says no to all those, and then they practice saying yes. And then this one party that I was reading about, um, the rule not only is you know, you are can say no at any time, you can say yes at any time. Um, but when um it also gives you practice in handling rejection. If if you ask somebody if they want to cuddle and they say no at this one party, um the people are uh advised to say in return, thank you for taking care of yourself. Um instead of like acting hurt or mad that you were rejected. And so I think that's really cool because it gives people you know, that's one of the benefits of, and that's why some of the people actually go to these parties is to practice consent asking for it, getting it, getting rejected, handling that. And and And in and in the parties that are well facilitated, before you do anything, you have to ask. So can I rub your shoulder? You know, you have to wait for the yes. You can't just grab somebody. So, Rob, I'm thinking for you with that kind of ground rule, it might make you feel a little more comfortable because you can always, if somebody comes up to you and wants to do butt to butt, you can say no.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

So um I like all of those rules. Like, so that starts to be like, okay, it's a little more organized, a little more structured than maybe I thought. But then I'm thinking back to uh, you know, that individual who's just gotten out of a relationship and they're trying to get back into the world and they keep getting rejected left and right. Like, uh, can I uh lay my head on your shoulder? Uh no. Okay, well, thank you for uh, you know, whatever you said, whatever they said, whatever, whatever the response, taking care of yourself. And so then they go to someone else, hey, can I rub your shoulders? No, thank you for taking care of yourself. By the end of like, if you get to like three or four, they're gonna be, I don't know, upset. Like it's like I I know that this is supposed to help you deal with rejection, but if all you're getting is rejection, like well, I don't know if that's gonna help that person.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

So you're right, that can happen. I think part of it is um making yourself accessible to people, um, being willing to kind of get right into it.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

So I I really appreciate Rob's heavy sigh at making himself accessible.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

As you guys know about me, I mean, not you, like I will give you guys hugs whenever I see you. Like I'm affectionate with you guys, but on the most part, I have a bubble and I don't want people in it without I mean again, we're talking about consent, which is great, but sometimes like if you're at a cuddle party, the expectation is you gotta cuddle. So it's I uh like I've got I've got my own issues. Like, what's my body temperature like? Am I too sweaty? Uh are my fingertips too cold? Do I have an erection? Like, I just don't want to manage all these things inside my head when all I'm supposed to be doing is like, oh, human touch. Like I know it's a me problem and not a cuddle proto, a cuddle party problem, but it's still an issue.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Yeah, but that's why I think you would be a perfect person to go to a cuddle party. Because you would get a chance to explore your boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Uh okay, okay. I'm I'm I I'll tense up. I can feel myself tensing up right now.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

But that's where the rubbing comes in. It's relaxing.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

I understand. No, it's gonna make it worse. And I'm c I'm clinching, like everything's clinched.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

So the butt pillow would be the butt pillow would be a rough ride.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Oh, oh no, like that's even with friends. No one's no one's butt pill. Yeah, grab half their face with my buns of steel.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

You know, uh one author who was writing about their experience said that it felt kind of like a band-aid, um, not like a real genuine connection. Obviously, there are some people who go to these parties and they uh immediately feel comfortable and they like it. Um, but his take on it was, yeah, it was fine, but it didn't feel real. And I wondered if cuddle parties for some people are kind of like that, like it's okay, but I'm not getting this deep feeling of love and affection that I would get with a partner.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Amy, I have a question for you real quick. Sure, yeah. You got invited to a cuddle party. Let's say, hey, Amy, and you're like, okay, like your partner's okay with it. Sure, go ahead. What would you wear? Like, I don't know what I would wear. Like, I would guess like like pajama bottoms and a comfy t-shirt.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Like, I don't I love that every time you imagine like I know you're seeing the cuddle party in your mind, and then you're you say, yeah. Um, I would wear like sweatpants. I like the idea of sweatpants and like a soft t-shirt.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

I mean, I know that, like, I know that Ross was just covered in mud.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

So that's I I wanted to ask that. So Ross, I think because yeah, please, let's talk more about you covered in mud. In all seriousness, I think it's different to the cuddle party that you that happened organically and like a mood sort of struck people who knew each other and who were enjoying sharing adult beverages with each other. And versus paying for the party. Like it is there is something different. Like people are there because they paid to be there. D do you think that makes a difference?

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Yeah. Well, I think peep it's more they're more committed to having an experience and they're more committed to having it though facilitated so that it doesn't get out of hand. So you can so that there's these whole set of ground rules about when you can touch someone and when you can't, and what kind of touching is allowed. I think it's that the safety of that is makes it more um reasonable for people. Uh you're not supposed to they they most parties tell you not to drink ahead of time. Um because that, you know, makes it harder for you to comply. Uh or just and just sometimes just it cuts down on your awareness because it's all about being aware of whoever it is you're with and what what their needs are. And um, you know, it it's you you don't really want to be in a um what's the word? You don't want to be inebriated, you don't want to be high. So who knows if people actually follow those rules, but that's that you're not supposed to be drinking.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

I don't think I'm mature enough to go to a cuddle party. Like I just don't I think you have to be a certain mindset and understand this is just what it is, and I don't think I'm there. I I don't think I'm there.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Makes me sad. Well, well, what do what's the main what's the main thing that's getting in the way?

SPEAKER_00 28:18

I I probably an erection. Like I just feel like like let's say I got through the the the barrier of I don't want strangers touching my body, or I I'm very tactile, right? Like so, like, oh, what's that smell? Like, I don't like that perfume. It smells like gingerbread, like I don't like it. Like, I just there's so let's say I got through all of those barriers, right? And then I found uh someone who who did not reject me, and they said, yes, let's uh Spoon River or whatever it's called. And I go, I go, okay. So all right, we're into it. And then uh oh. Uh like I just I'll feel awkward. Like I'm like, I'm sorry. Like he's got a mind of its own, like I'm embarrassed. Like I and then I've got to like manage it, and now it's like uh go away. Like I'm trying to I'm trying to get through that barrier. It's like just get to the other side, Roland, go away. I'm not sure it will. And then it's gonna like it's gonna loop in my head. Like I then that's all I'm gonna be thinking about is my erection. Like I'm just I'm not a person for this. I'm just not.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Well, I think that the way it works, because they it every everything I read about this, they say that's normal, that's gonna happen. But you always have the option to at any point say, hey, I'm I'm through. Thank you. Tap out. And yeah, you can tap out and go stand Blair Witch style in the corner until you're better. Um, but it also sounds like it's a temporary thing, like at first, because you're it's new and it's and it reminds you of every almost every single physical sexual encounter you've had. Sort of so your body kind of reacts normally to those signals. But after a while, you get used to it and you realize, you know, okay, this is not this is not sexual. This is really is about touch, and you relax into it. And the people that do it all the time, like they are they it's almost like a cult thing. Like they immediately get into it, they're you know, jump into any kind of puppy pile or any kind of puppy pile, right? Any kind of uh uh squirming mass of bodies. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

All right, well now you've said that, like I was puppy pile sounds adorable, but a squirming mass of bodies, like writhing, oh god human protoplasm.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

You get you just get into the middle of uh an arm and leg scissor thing. All right and you just enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

I think you guys know where I stand on this, but like after we've had this conversation, Ross, you've done it before. Would you go to another one? Why or why not? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Um, I would definitely go to a facilitated one. I think it's risky to just do it on your own, unless everyone knows each other. I think it's risky with a group of strangers not to have ground rules, you know. Um, so I would definitely do that. I would have no problem with it, you know, because all of us uh have been performers in our life, and so that means we've had to be in weird and close contact with not only each other, but with lots of different actors and other people. We've all done all of that. So we know that um you know that we have the capacity to do it.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Um, anything out of it?

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Um, I'm I'm really anxious to if if we weren't in the middle, as I said, of the pandemic, I would go out and do one right now just for the experience. Because I think it it it I'm not sure what I would take away, but I know it would be something interesting. I read this really long, interesting uh article um about a person who went, because they were having issues in their life with um letting people touch them. And uh, of course, this is more of a thing for people who identify female, right? Because uh they are constantly uh throughout their whole life um being touched when play at times or in places they don't want to be, Amy.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yes, can confirm?

SPEAKER_03 32:32

And for men too, I mean, we in even in our world, you know, uh especially as kids, people will grab you, punch you, do you know, tackle you, do things that you don't want them to do to your body. Um and so this person went, uh, and their first experience was they people would ask them to cuddle and they did, but they didn't want to. So they just kind of got through it, like by going to that place you go to when you're in a you know bad situation, like like a line at the grocery store or something. Sounds so relaxing, yeah. Yeah, so it was so so they just they had that experience where it wasn't bad, like no, nothing bad happened, but they never they didn't feel like they were actually consenting, they were just doing what they always did throughout their life, which was go along with it. So their partner advised them to go again, and this time just say no every single time if somebody asked them. And so they did, and that's what they did. They actually said no to everyone throughout the whole party, through the whole evening, a couple hours, and it really felt good to them, you know, to do that, like to say no when someone said, Can I touch your shoulder? No, thank you. And then the person said, Well, thanks for taking care of yourself. It just felt really good. And what the person said is that their takeaway was to say that to themselves uh anytime that comes up in real life. If some if if somebody comes to like give them a hug, because you know some people are huggers, right? But but like you don't always want to be hugged, and so it she said she felt empowered to not only say, Oh, no thanks, no thanks for the hug, but great to see you, and then say to herself, thanks for taking care of yourself. I've got a friend who loves hugging, but they overhug. Oh yeah, they they hold it too long for my comfort.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

I know you know anybody like that? Oh, yep. I absolutely know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

The overhuggers, yeah. And then they kind of it almost seems with this one person, and I've known a few other people like this, but the one person, it seems like their their attitude is you're gonna like this, just give it more time. Like just keep letting me overhug you. I've and then we're gonna get to a place where it's gonna be awesome, where it's good. And I feel never feel that. If I'm not really wanting that long of a hug, it's never gonna get better doing it more.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

And I think I res uh just by nature, I'm contrarian anyway. So I think if someone tells me that I'm going to enjoy something, that I'm just not let I'm absolutely never going to enjoy it. Like, we're just done. I will refuse, even if I'm enjoying it, I will unenjoy it just because you said I should.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Okay. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep that in mind. I know people that they take pride in their hugging skills, and like whenever you see them, you're like, oh god, it's gonna be 15 minutes of hugging. Like, oh, oh hey, oh boy, you're a good, strong hugger, beer hug. Yeah. Like, all right, uh, okay. No means no. Like, it's just uh I hate it, I hate all of it.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Yeah, and it's it's it's a boundaries thing, and it's and some people do it with handshakes. They either too hard or too long. Uh some people are just touchier than other people, and and so the problem isn't with them, it's with us setting our boundaries, you know, just saying, hey, that's enough, because it's awkward. If somebody comes up to hug you and you kind of go, uh-uh, you have to then deal with the awkwardness of that. But doing that, I think, is very liberating because then you realize, oh, I I get to control this. Or even if you want to hug somebody, but it goes on too long, just say, okay, I'm I'm done.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

What is it about our society though? Like I've seen this occur like in the flesh. Like someone comes up for a hug, and then the one's like, no, I I'm not, I nope, no, thank you. And everybody immediately kind of looks at that person who said no thank you, and it's like, what's wrong with that person? Like, I think I've even done that where I'm just like, why wonder what's going on there that they can't take a hug? Like, and that's horrible for me to think that. But like, what is it about society that, or maybe it's just me, I don't know, but that we immediately are like, what's wrong with that person for not taking a hug? Like the other person is actually the perpetrator, the hugger, not the huggy, but still, even the huggy is like, no, thank you. I'm out. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Yeah, we blame, we we're we like to blame the victim.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Well, and I think Ross, you you made a good point earlier on. I think we normalize with children at when we are children, you know, hug your aunt, you know, let your go hug your cousin, and you know, when a child doesn't want to be hugged, we insist that they get hugged. And so then you learn from a very early age that you're you don't have the right to deny, you know, to it require consent. I think it's really important that we start as children by because I know I was required. Anyone who wanted a hug from me up to the age of, I don't know, 13, like you just couldn't say no to them.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Yeah, that I think that's that's you put your finger on it. It's a conditioning thing, it happens early. Um not to everyone, but to I think I think it happens a lot. Um when I was a kid, I had uh these Italian relatives around, and they're all about grabbing and um squeezing and pinching the crap out of you. And I mean, it's like even if you just saw them three minutes like earlier and they see you again, it's like it starts all over again with the grabbing and the pinching and the squeezing. And so as a kid, you I had to learn, you know, some rope dopage and some some often awesome like sidestep moves, like, you know, uh get around these people. And they they didn't mean any harm. There was just a very grabby, uh, you know, Italians are just grabby people. Uh they just grab, you know, whether it's a kid or a pig they can use to make sausage or whatever it is, they're always grabbing things. But yeah, you grow up kind of not really feeling um that you control that your body completely. And I know it's different for different sexes, uh, different gender identities, but it happens to all of us. And uh and there's really no conditioning about protecting yourself, right? We're not really teaching our kids, or at least that we weren't. When I was a kid, they weren't really we weren't really teaching people to have agency and to say no, and it was all just like it's okay. Like, it's okay. So uh people felt okay putting hands on you all the time.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

I think that's what I find most delightful about so I'm I'm team Rob for the most part. Like I ha I'm having a hard time imagining that I'm mature enough to handle what I think is required to be a responsible cudding cuddle party participant. But I do find what you were expressing about this um practicing giving and um withholding consent. I think that's a lesson that is without and and I'm in a very healthy, uh wonderful, dynamic relationship, but I think all the lessons that I learned up to now have not been in support of that. So the idea of having the opportunity to practice that in a safe environment is actually it I I'm really interested in giving it a try, except for the fact that I think I would get very giggly and then want to make out with somebody. So I've got work to do. I've got work to do. But I like the idea of it in the abstract.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

Well, you can, as I said, you can always um manage, you can always agree to meet later after the cuddle party if you meet someone like that. But I think that's I think that's one of the main benefits of it from what everything that I've read, it seems like the main benefit is uh this idea, uh all these ideas around consent about giving it, um, receiving it, um, not receiving it, not giving it. It's really, it's like a real important muscle. And in the same time, you might find that you like it. And and and I think the only objection that Rob has really raised is that he's afraid that he'll go to Bone Town.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

No, that's not the only objection. Like uh that's a big one. I mean, what but but uh it's more see we're all very immature.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

I know I can't do it. I can't even you say Bone Town, and I'm like a 14-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

No, it's also like I don't like there's certain smells I don't like.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

There's certain what smells do you think you're gonna encounter?

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Oh yeah, that's a that's a whole of the backstory. But I you know uh the human body's disgusting, guys. And there's different there's uh sometimes there's smells that have nothing to do with the person.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

I I just I don't want, I don't want, I mean, and then I smell like I don't I have this whole picture, Rob, of you showing up in a red onesie and on the front of it it says the human body is disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

It is, it is gross, like it's just and then I just wonder how people would relate to that.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

And you just sat there in the middle of the floor saying, Who wants to be in a spoon drawer?

SPEAKER_02 42:46

I wonder if Rob is thinking that it smells like human.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, I was gonna tie it in at the end. I was gonna tie it in. You can kind of smell like human let rub to it at the end. No, no, it's fine. It's fine.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Um, that's great. Except nobody I've ever met smells like gingerbread.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Oh, there was a we don't have time, but there was a whole thing where it was I was uh seeing uh uh someone and we got close into like a a cuddling, a heavy petting situation, and she smelt like gingerbread, and it reminded me of children, and I just I checked out. Like I'm like, I'm not like I don't like this, I don't like the smell that was triggering. I don't know. I just didn't like it.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

And so then I tapped out. It reminded you of children like Hansel and Gretel or something.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

No, it was just like it was like, you know, when you think of like gingerbread, you're making gingerbread houses during Christmas, the kids are laughing, and you're putting little gum drop uh posts up where you're sidewalking. You know what? I don't ugh like I just I was just I didn't it didn't it didn't turn me on, which is where that was going. It turned me off, and I was just like Well, that's perfect.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

You need to go to a gingerbread cuddle party because you won't have to worry about the you know, the bonerama situation.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Gingerbread spray. Yeah, candle, yeah, yeah. So it's hey, can we cuddle? Yeah, hold on, let me light this real fast and just put this next to us.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

And that would also help the candle would help with the butt pillow situation.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Oh my god. So there's a lot of just who wants to lay on a butt? Like that's a made-up picture. Like, no one, there is no, there is no, like, hey, can I lay on your butt? Like, uh no, you cannot.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

Yeah, I think I I don't think that would be my top pick.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

No. Or any pick.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

But I guess some people do. Well, um, I think Rob, I think what we've we've um I think where we've been able to journey here is that I think you're more receptive to this than when we started.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Is that what you got?

SPEAKER_03 44:55

I've I kind of feel like, well, we've kind of narrowed it down. If we can cut the gingerbread smell, if we can eliminate that, if that could be one of the ground rules, and that there's like a like a bone of silence you can go to. Um, if things get out of hand. There, yeah, there's you can there's a place or like a dunking tank you can just jump into filled with ice water.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Here's here's what uh here's for me. I've uh going into it, I was just thinking, this is just silly, and I don't get it. What I've gathered from uh this this discussion is that I do see some of the benefits for it. However, not for me. Not for me. I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

Okay. Well, that's that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

You're you're you're no the appropriate response is thanks for taking care of yourself. Oh, yes, that's what I was trying to get to.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

Is like you are protecting yourself, and that's that's exactly the philosophy of the cuddle party. If you can take yourself out of it right at the beginning, just by never showing up and then say thank you for thank you for taking care of yourself. And then you could still stand in the corner, play with stuff, just for thinking about it. Well, this has been a fun episode. I I feel like this topic is fascinating, and I look forward to going to a professional cuddle party so that um I won't have to be uh muddy. Um, I can just be comfortable. And uh thank you, Amy and Rob, for being part of this discussion. It's always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Yeah, thanks for still sweating and clenching his hands together.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

I am I am everything's clenched. That's what I want to be thinking about. And we hope that you'll tune in to another episode soon. Because whether you're a regular cuddle monkey like Rob or you're just fine right where you are, thank you. It's important to remember, gingerbread or not, that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.