Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
NOT AGAINST THE LAW TO LOVE TRUE CRIME
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Special guest and true crime lover Jaimee, joins Ross for a discussion about why some humans love and consume the true crime genre. Tangents include: "Hand Cart Jesus"; Ted Bundy's "light hole" trick; Mormons; 90 Day Fiancee; serial killer nostalgia; and Space Aliens in RV's.
Notes:
1. IDENTITY AND RITUAL: THE AMERICAN CONSUMPTION OF TRUE
CRIME. https://digitalcommons.mtu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=etdr#:~:text=%E2%80%9Creal%E2%80%9D%20name.-,True%20Crime%3A%20An%20American%20Genre,as%20such%20in%20the%201970s.
2. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/559256/why-we-love-true-crime
3. https://www.buzzfeed.com/mikespohr/19-reasons-datelines-keith-morrison-is-televisions-greatest?utm_term=.jiyDgRQm9#.ch163Qwpj
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
I only work out so I don't get serial killed.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do. The very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today's guest is one of my favorite Portland friends, Jamie. Hello, Jamie.
SPEAKER_02Hi Ross.
SPEAKER_01It's great to have you.
SPEAKER_02Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01Today we are going to be discussing the fact that some of us humans love true crime. Not like, but love. We like reading about it, watching documentaries about it, listening to podcasts about it, and engaging in online sleuthing just to name a few of the common ways people pursue this topic. And recently I read an article that suggested that true crime narratives serve a function by restoring feelings of safety. So it's a ritual that's been going back for centuries, actually, where we learn to feel more comfortable about our community and the safety of our community based on how these narratives are constructed and told. So, Jamie.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01You love true crime.
SPEAKER_02I do.
SPEAKER_01And I do too. But I think you're more you're deeper into it than I am.
SPEAKER_02I think I have a real problem. Yeah. I watch an unhealthy amount of true crime.
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, this is great, because this is what we're talking about, because I want to know a little bit about what draws you to these stories about murder and mayhem.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I would have to say that it probably started when I was a kid.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02I have a little bit of a personal connection to a pretty famous true crime.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. This sounds fascinating.
SPEAKER_02It is. So when I was a kid, I grew up in um Salt Lake City, Utah.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02And we used to go to this park called Sugarhouse Park all the time. And there was this man who would walk around Sugarhouse Park kind of panhandling, begging for money. And he was kind of dressed like Jesus? Kind of dressed like Jesus. Yeah, dressed like Jesus. He would push like a an old hand cart around.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Was he wearing a leisure suit?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell It was actually like a white robe and he had like a big bushy beard. And he was just like a well-known character in uh downtown Salt Lake. Everybody kind of knew the handcart guy. Did he have Handcard Jesus?
SPEAKER_01Right. Did Handcard Jesus have a name?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell He did. His name was Emmanuel.
SPEAKER_01Of course.
SPEAKER_02Of course, obviously. So Handcart Jesus also had a wife that you would sometimes see walking around with him dressed similarly with like a veil on covering her face. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Handcart Jesus had a wife. Did she have a name?
SPEAKER_02I don't remember what her fake name was. Her Emmanuel equivalent name was. I don't remember what that was.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Anyways, fast forward to when I'm 14 years old. When I was 14, there was a girl who lived real close to me. You may have heard of her. Her name was Elizabeth Smart.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness, of course.
SPEAKER_02Elizabeth Smart was also 14.
SPEAKER_01Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wait, she lived near you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Did you know her?
SPEAKER_02I did not know her, no. But we lived pretty close. Wow. Um, yeah. And we were both blonde-haired, blue-eyed, 14-year-olds. Wow. Um, and she went missing. And she was missing for quite some time. I want to say like maybe like eight months, something like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. That's right, I think.
SPEAKER_02Snatched out of her house. Um and the house that I grew up in, we didn't have air conditioning and it was very hot, so we would always sleep with the windows open. And I just remember constantly being terrified that whoever snatched Elizabeth Smart was gonna come through my window. Oh man. It was open on the first floor. Anyways, comes out later on, um they capture the guy and it's Handcart Jesus. No way. Yeah. That was the guy? That was the guy, Handcart Jesus and his wife. And they would just walk around in plain sight. Elizabeth Smart was with them, but also wearing a robe.
SPEAKER_01That's right. That's how they caught him, right? Because they were walking around and and and Elizabeth Smart was saying that she was the daughter.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Or his daughter. That was the kind of story that he gave her.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then uh goodness.
SPEAKER_02Then the cops found her and yeah. Took a little while to convince her. I think she had the little Stockholm situation. But yeah. We used to see Handcart Jesus all the time. And I think that was my first uh taste of true crime.
SPEAKER_01I bet. Yeah. That must have been really something. So when when that was happening, were you around the same age?
SPEAKER_02We were exactly the same age. We were both 14.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Did you go to the same school?
SPEAKER_02No, we didn't.
SPEAKER_01I her parents were uh rich, and mine were not so what were your can you remember how you felt at the time this was going like when she got when everyone knew that she had been something had happened to her, what were you feeling at that time?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, I just remember being like very frightened because he came in through her window. Um and we looked quite similar uh and were the same age. So I just remember being really scared up until they caught him. And I want to say they put him on the FBI's top ten most wanted list at a certain point. So then we knew it was hand card cheeses, and I was like, oh my God, I know him.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Yeah. That is amazing. So you come by this by uh having a close shave.
SPEAKER_02A close shave a little bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um because that could have happened to anyone. Sure. Um so I was reading this article that tried to outline some of the main reasons why people like true crime. And I just have a couple I want to go over and see if any of them resonate with you besides the fact that um you had a close call of your own.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So one suggestion was that evil is fascinating.
SPEAKER_02This is true.
SPEAKER_01Um we like to find out about aberrant people and the bad things that they do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um that's definitely true for me. Um, I have always been interested in abnormal behavior. Absolutely. And it is intriguing. How about this one? Uh it helps you feel more prepared to deal with evil or abduction. Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02My sister and I sometimes will have a girl's night and watch true crime, as sisters do. Uh, and we constantly say, Oh my god, these people are so stupid. Like we would be so much better at this. When in actuality we probably would be dead. But I like to think that because I watch so much, I'm more prepared for the inevitable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Do do you what what do you think is like the most important thing to do or not do to make yourself safer from evil?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a good question. I I guess uh I take public transit a lot, right? Yeah. And I like to have like a disguise on so people don't talk to me. So I have my headphones in, you know, sunglasses on and stuff. But I definitely turn my headphones down to the lowest volume so that I am aware of predators around me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I actually want to come back to that one. Sure. Um, because of something else I read, but let me keep going through these reasons. Another one that was offered was um it gives us a feeling of Schadenfreude, the you know, the glee we get in knowing that something bad is happening to somebody else.
SPEAKER_02Not to us, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That didn't happen to us. Did you feel any of that?
SPEAKER_02I don't know if I feel that necessarily, but I do find myself very, very uh frustrated when they don't catch the murderer at the end. Right of a thing. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01It's very unsatisfying.
SPEAKER_02It's very unsatisfying.
SPEAKER_01Uh another thing I want to come back to that's really important. Uh another reason they offer in this article, which I thought was funny, is this social comparison function. So the the one part of it is uh I think goes overlaps with the Schadenfreude, where we compare ourselves to the victim and say, would we have done it differently?
SPEAKER_02We would have been so much better at that.
SPEAKER_01Um but also apparently at least some of us compare ourselves to the uh perpetrator, too. Oh, definitely. The murderer, and say, well, you know, I might have missed that anniversary, but at least I didn't kill 40 people and beat them. I'm not that bad. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02But you left a fingerprint? Come on. That's the first thing they teach you.
SPEAKER_01And then uh there's people like solving puzzles, so there's the mystery aspect of it. It's like you get a chance to try to figure it out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so that's another reason people like the genre. Uh and then there's this thing uh that um is referred to by academics as the restoration ritual, which I mentioned at the top, which is this idea that you know, living in a just world, believing that um if there are bad people, then they get consequences. Yeah. Um and that uh so that it kind of restores our feeling of safety by knowing that, well, there could be evil people, but we understand, we understand why they do it. Right. And then um they get punished.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or something else happens to them. And so that's uh an important aspect. One of the things that people like about the genre, which explains when um the stories don't have a conclusion where they can't find the person, it's very unsatisfying because there's no unsatisfying.
SPEAKER_02Like, I want it to be wrapped up in a nice little package at the end.
SPEAKER_01And you want to know that the person got their come up and they didn't confess that at least something, you know, they were put away or whatever happens to people.
SPEAKER_02So on that one, too, do you find it to be really unsatisfying when the bad guy takes their own life?
SPEAKER_01I've always I always uh have disliked the bad guy taking his own life.
SPEAKER_02I just feel like there's no justice in that one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it really it really kind of cheats the community out of the satisfaction of mob rule. Yeah. Or just or just seeing like the the punishment because when they kill themselves, they're still controlling it.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So and and it's it sounds so bloodthirsty, but you know, you're thinking, no, I want this person, I want the community to punish this person, and we we want to be able to decide what the punishment is, and we want to be able to witness.
SPEAKER_02We want justice for the victim.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. We but we watch a lot of these shows. A lot. Whenever I need a recommendation, I will text Jamie and she'll give tell me whether something's good or not, or have I seen this or that.
SPEAKER_02And usually you have, but sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sometimes I learn something new. The other thing I found out is that when I'm when I text you about true crime, it doesn't matter what time of day or night it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I will get a response from you within three minutes. And it's I don't sleep. Three o'clock in the morning, six a.m.
SPEAKER_02I gotta be up on crime watch 24-7.
SPEAKER_01So you're like you're like my lifeline when I need uh information about true crime. And so we were doing a lot of sharing about this over the months, the many months that um quarantine months were rough. Consuming these episodes. And so I I said, you know, we really need a rating system so uh we can tell. I because I don't want to waste time. I'm not gonna watch anything. Right. Gotta be good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we came up with this rating system, this four-point scale. Do you remember that?
SPEAKER_02I do remember that. How can I forget?
SPEAKER_01So why don't you take us through the four-point scale?
SPEAKER_02Okay. So the four-point scale.
SPEAKER_01What was number one? What what's one for? What does that mean?
SPEAKER_02Number one.
SPEAKER_01We rated a one. It means it's no good.
SPEAKER_02That it's not worth the time to watch. One of us has suffered through it, the other person doesn't need to.
SPEAKER_01Right. It's just don't bother. And that's because it's either just a bad story or cheesy.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes I find like the narrators are super cheesy, or they're all reenactments. Yes. Yes. I hate a lot of reenactments.
SPEAKER_01Do you know this dude, Keith Morrison? He's the guy on Dateline, the the dramatic narrative.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01He's kind of creepy, kind of dramatic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01A lot of people like him. I guess he's kind of a good sport, but I just hate that approach to these things.
SPEAKER_02And there's so many of those ones, I feel like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're just dripping with like this is a new crazy.
SPEAKER_02Now, to be fair, sometimes if I'm like cleaning my house and not paying attention, I'll throw on a number one for background noise. Okay. A little murder for background noise, you know.
SPEAKER_01I have been told that this podcast is good for cleaning that garage. It's background, so I don't mind that at all. So yeah, the overdramatic music kills it.
SPEAKER_02Kills it.
SPEAKER_01Unnecessary repetition is one of the things I hate where they keep just repeating and repeating and repeating. And not only just re-summarizing what they've just told you again and again and again, um, but also just showing me the same imagery over and over again to for shock value. That's right.
SPEAKER_02They have like two photos of one person that keep showing the same two photos. Yes.
SPEAKER_01So irritating. And I think some of it is just to kind of keep your keep you know getting you juiced up. Totally. But some of it's just time filler. Yeah. It's like they want to make this like a three-part series. They have enough material for like an hour, but they've got to get three or four hours. How are they going to do that?
SPEAKER_02Stretch, repeat yourself constantly.
SPEAKER_01Just keep showing the same pictures. The recreations you mentioned, the bad ones, those killing. Don't. Please don't. If you're making true crime out there, if you happen to be listening to this, we hate it. Especially the really bad recreations. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um also I don't know if anybody on this podcast that watched 90-day fiance, don't judge me. But there's one of the people from 90-day fiance is in the reenactments on Joe Kenda's show.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_02So watch out for him. Okay. True crime fans and 90 Day fans.
SPEAKER_01And then the I think you kind of I don't like the really super graphic imagery, but I kind of get the sense that that doesn't bother you so much. Because you've recommended shows to me that I can't watch because they are just going to show body parts the whole time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Like the real photos? Yeah. When you're scraping the barrel of true crime.
SPEAKER_01You gotta go there.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes you gotta go there.
SPEAKER_01I'm not as hardcore as you, so I admit that freely, or I'm not as strong of a person, maybe. So anyway, those are the ones.
SPEAKER_02Yes, that's the one. Number two. Two is a place filler. It's a fine show. It'll give you a quick fix, but it's not amazing.
SPEAKER_01Right. So if you gotta monkey on your body.
SPEAKER_02You gotta watch something. We've watched the whole internet. There's nothing left to watch. This one will do in a pinch.
SPEAKER_01I gotta have me some. Yes. And that'll do. Okay, that's number two. Then number three, what is a three?
SPEAKER_02Number three is that it's pretty good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02We I enjoyed it. I wouldn't say it blew my mind.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02But I thought it was quite watchable and I sat down and I watched it. I didn't get up and do something else while it was.
SPEAKER_01Pretty good narrative. Yeah. Made you feel good, and maybe there were some some interesting aspect to it. Sure. Okay, so then the the rarefied air is reserved for the fours. And what are those?
SPEAKER_02A four is a must see.
SPEAKER_01A must-see.
SPEAKER_02You cannot not watch this one.
SPEAKER_01Right. You're watching it and something happens or something is disclosed either once or multiple times, where you literally shout out loud, what the ever-living fuck. Because it's just mind-blowing. And one of the ones I remember, I don't remember what it was called. I think it was called abducted in plain sight. Which wasn't a murder, it was an abduction story.
SPEAKER_02Well, we texted each other.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02Because it was quite possibly the craziest thing I've ever seen. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01But I would yell at the TV and I would say, are you gotta be kidding me?
SPEAKER_02You cannot be serious.
SPEAKER_01So for people who are either not really familiar with the genre, or for people who maybe are familiar but are looking for new things to watch, can you tell us a little bit about that abducted in plain sight? Because that was definitely a four, right?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell That was a four. And I feel like that one's maybe top of my list of ones you absolutely have to watch. So abducted in plain sight, this one has it all. You have an abduction. You have uh aliens.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I forgot about the aliens.
SPEAKER_02And not only one abduction, two abductions, right? Correct?
SPEAKER_01Oh, wait a minute. Okay. You're remembering better than I do. So first, before you go down the list, this was a uh a child, a teenage child, or a young this this this is a young child that grew up in a Mormon family. Oh I forgot it was Mormons.
SPEAKER_02Mormons. I was raised Mormon, so I remember these things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh and her parents I feel like if I were to I'm not a parent, but if I were to write a handbook on what not to do as a parent, I would just play this documentary for everyone. So this there's a young girl and they have this neighbor who has got an infatuation with her, and the parents think that he's creepy. But they still let him hang out with their daughter all the time. Uh I think they have some slumber parties. Basically, he abducts her, right? Uh takes her to Mexico, marries her. Oh, they get married. And they get married in Mexico. She's 12, I believe, at the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02And the parents are like, yeah, okay. This is fine.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Until the FBI gets involved, they gotta come and get her. Right. Uh bring her back. But then the parents uh let her go again with this guy.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Yeah. So at one point, uh, as the girl's getting older, he uh one of the things that people who abduct children do regularly is they find a way to threaten the child with consequences if they try to leave or if they tell anybody. Yes. And he came up with this backstory about aliens.
SPEAKER_02It was a brilliant plan. So he kidnaps her the and puts her in an RV, and he has a little speaker next to her bed, and he has recorded an alien telling her that her dad is an alien. Her mom's her mom, but her dad is an alien.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And she thinks of the Jesus story. She's like, well, Mary and God, right? Jesus' dad is God. So my dad must be an alien. That makes that tracks. Uh but the aliens tell her that she needs to have a baby with another human who will be revealed later. Uh and then the guy that had abducted her basically has himself tied up in a bed next to her, and they say, This is the guy. This is the one you need to have a baby with.
SPEAKER_01Wow, this is it's such a wild. It's wild, it's a wild ride. But I think the amazing, the most amazing and frustrating thing for me was the parents. The parents are totally taken in by this guy, this neighbor, over time. They uh to the point where I think he was able to get really in both of their heads separately and manipulated them as well.
SPEAKER_02Because he bangs them both.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he has sex with both the mom and the dad.
SPEAKER_02And then uses that as uh what's the word I'm looking for?
SPEAKER_01Blackmail. Blackmail later on. That's right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So he's got several.
SPEAKER_02But they don't turn him into the police because they don't want their neighbors to think that they were having some shenanigans with the neighbor. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Right.
SPEAKER_01So he's blackmailing the wife, he's blackmailing the dad. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02They actually sign affidavits saying that they won't turn him into the police or else he'll reveal.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell And you're watching this and you're thinking did we forget about the kid here? It's like what do you care about your records?
SPEAKER_02But what about your daughter? Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's like who cares?
SPEAKER_01It's a kid out of the RV who's like thinking she's being talked to by aliens. It's so crazy. It's the craziest story. Trevor Burrus And that word gets that that that word crazy gets used a lot, and it's not always appropriate, but it is appropriate in this story. This one blew my mind. Amazingly frustrating to watch these parents totally flunk out of doing a parent. Like really blow it. And if you watch it, you will I guarantee you you'll scream at the TV.
SPEAKER_02Every 20 minutes you'll go, what?
SPEAKER_01I was um you know, there's a lot of stories out there about kid you know, kids getting abducted or being groomed, yes. By pedophiles and by perpetrators of all kinds. So I I was saying, well, there must be some basic um strategies that these people use because uh it seems so similar each time. And so it turns out there are. They target the kid they want, they gain their trust, not only of the kid, but they gain the trust of the parents, which is always the thing that you see happening and you go, uh-oh, how can they be falling for this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes they're excited about the kid's relationship with the if the person's a celebrity or something, then they're like they it's they're getting sort of um satisfaction out of seeing their kid hang out with a famous person. Sure. But but whoever it is or whatever it is, they they they they start trusting that person. The perpetrator recognizes um, they target the people who they think maybe don't get enough affection, or they um just want more attention, so they start giving them gifts and attention and treating them very specially. So it it fills that emotional need for the child, and then the isolation process starts where they um they separate them from their friends and family. Right. They create a lot of reasons to be alone with the child. Uh one of the things I I don't think you've watched and probably will never watch the Michael Jackson HBO one. Yeah, I know you it it's gonna be it's a lot hard for a lot of people to uh watch that one, and I understand why. But one of the interesting things in that was like one of the moms who was traveling with her son who was performing with Michael Jackson, when Michael Jackson would say, Hey, I'm we're you know, I want to sleep with your son in in in in a hotel room, yeah. We're gonna close the door, you'll be out on the couch, but he's just gonna sleep with me. Like she's okay with that.
SPEAKER_00It's like that's fine. Yeah, it seems fine.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, you're a grown man and a grown man and this is a small child. And it makes sense. And I and I I'll just be in another room so it's safe. The door's closed, of course. I don't know what's happening. Right. And I was trying to think, because I have two kids, and I was trying to think back like, would this ever would I be so starstruck that I would say, yeah, yeah, you you yes, adult, please sleep with my child in the same bed. And I've I want to say no, but I think as soon as you start going down that road of, well, I would never do that, you're falling into the trap, you know, that it's always those other people. Right. And and that's part of the uh that's part of what happens in these true crime narratives. I never thought about this before. So they focus a lot on the perpetrator, but they also tend to suggest that the victims are to blame somehow.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Maybe not because they're asking for it or anything like that, but because maybe they're naive. Or in this case, the parents were co-opted to not really do their jobs.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Well, and I feel like on the R. Kelly documentary, right? A lot of the young kids were wanting to be singers themselves and they had great voices and they think this is my inn, and I will do whatever it takes to get famous. And I think their parents, you know, are kind of on that same page. Like this is what you have to do to get famous. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01That's a great example. So, yeah. So when the parents sort of are, you know, are wanting this connection and they've sort of idealized it, then they're willing to kind of let this happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Things that they normally wouldn't let happen. So that's really important in the grooming. And then of course the the relationship tends to go sexual, and then the threats um begin like you can't tell, because either something bad will happen to you, something bad will happen to me, or your family. Something bad will happen to your family. All these are aliens will come.
SPEAKER_02Aliens are gonna come and murder your family.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02If you don't have my alien babe.
SPEAKER_01So secrecy and threats. Yes. And and this is the this is like the playbook for for people like this that are featured in a story abducted in plain sight. So that was definitely number four because it was just It was wild. Over the top. And I kept checking to make sure it wasn't made up. Yeah. That's how incredulous I was.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Okay, what's another good one?
SPEAKER_02Uh the other one I wanted to talk about, because I just find this story to be so crazy and fascinating, is the Susan Powell, Josh Powell. Susan Powell and Josh Powell, they're also Mormon. I don't know why I picked all Mormon stories, but Yeah. Yeah. What's going on with the Mormons, by the way?
SPEAKER_01There was I grew up or I think check into my psychology, maybe.
SPEAKER_02So Susan Powell and Josh Powell are married and they have two boys, and Susan Powell goes missing. And they're trying to figure out who took her. Right. What happened to Susan? Focus turns to the husband. It's not looking good for the husband. Everything looks really bad. And then they find out that his his father was also infatuated with her and he wrote her love songs.
SPEAKER_01He was videoing her all the time.
SPEAKER_02I think they lived with him for a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they had to boot and and she wasn't aware. She was unaware.
SPEAKER_02He was videoing her and taking pictures and writing her love songs. And uh turns out he was also taking pictures of other children in the neighborhood, so he went to jail. But either way, Josh Powell was never actually arrested.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And uh he has a a visitation with his kids one day. The it's a supervised visit, the the state worker brings him brings the kids over, they go inside, and he locks the state worker out uh and basically blows up the house with the kids inside. Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible.
SPEAKER_01It's a horrible outcome.
SPEAKER_02It's a crazy story. You think it's kind of all over when when the dad goes to jail and then it's looking like Josh is probably gonna go to jail and then he just ends both his kids and himself.
SPEAKER_01So he probably did it. I really think so. Yeah, yeah. So even in that one, so coming back to this thesis that I didn't make up, I read someone else's thoughtful uh dissertation on this. But they're saying that for the true crime narrative, which I suggested goes, they suggest goes back hundreds of years in this country, back to when people are executed, like in the 1600s and they had execution sermons. People would come watch. Yeah, they would come watch and the stories would be told. And it was a way of, again, reassuring the community that you know there is a just world out there. And the bad guys get caught and they confess or they get punished or something happens. But the the as the as the true crime narrative has progressed, uh, particularly picking up a lot of steam in the 80s and 90s, uh, following on um you know the whole serial killer movement when we started having like uh you know in the 60s and 70s some really notable serial killers, the true crime narrative uh took on uh its current form, which is a heavy focus on the the murderer and their mode of why. Why are they doing it? What what's their thing? How do they do it? What are their uh signature moves and and and kinds of methods and modalities and all this? But the other really important part of restoring this feeling of safety is to suggest somehow that the victim is to blame.
SPEAKER_02Maybe it like makes us feel better if the victim did something wrong because we can be like, oh, okay, I just won't do that thing.
SPEAKER_01Right. I won't be a prostitute. Yeah. Because we know that prostitutes get murdered a lot.
SPEAKER_02Constantly, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Because these are people that are uh putting themselves at risk doing their job, right? And so we say, Well, I just won't do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or I won't, you know, if I'm in a bad situation, I'll recognize it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I'll I'll see it, I'll have this vision. It's like you with your headphones turned down. You know, it's like I'll know. I'll know. I'll know what's happening all over this bus. Yeah. I've got this covered right now, and you probably do. But that's how we so it it the again, not my thesis, but I thought it was very um interesting what I was reading is that the stories that we like the best, uh the perpetrator gets caught and the victims uh are not completely innocent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And in a case of children like Elizabeth Smart, well, or or let's pick um John Bene Ramsey, which I don't think they ever caught the person. No. Um so a lot of people think they know who it is, but they never actually brought a case against anybody. But she's obviously completely innocent. Yes. But so, but you can by proxy you can say that what's going on with the parents. Right. Like, were the parents being you know, like some people will say, well, they shouldn't have had their daughter do uh beauty pageants.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Because one theory is that the perpetrator was someone who attended these beauty pageants and became fascinated with her or fixated on her through that. So it was the parents were weird and they kind of had this coming.
SPEAKER_02Even Elizabeth Smart's family, they had hired this guy to do some yard work for them at some point. And then I think the way he got in was the mom had burnt dinner or something, so she opened a kitchen window, just cracked a kitchen window. And so you can be like, well, well, she left the window open. And they hired this crazy guy off the street to do yard work for them. Right.
SPEAKER_01So it's their fault. So what was fascinating to me is that this is a very common sort of theme in all of these, all of some of the better ones. And um, they have that, they they even if they're trying to give sort of attention and voice to the victims, they still spend most of their time on the perpetrator.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01And if the perpetrator is boring and just they're not very clever and there's like nothing going on there, they still do. It's like they still focus on most of it. Yeah. Um, so I just said, oh, I didn't even think about it. Like this follows a formula, and that's why this the formula is so successful because it it it reassures us. And what was cool is that this is a ritual that's been going on for hundreds of years. Yeah. So communities need it because randomness, especially when we're talking about evil, random evil is scary.
SPEAKER_02Totally.
SPEAKER_01It could happen to anybody, anytime.
SPEAKER_02Crime of passion.
SPEAKER_01Doesn't matter how it happens, when it happens, it can happen to anybody. But believing that the world is a just and fair place, and even when there's evil out there, evil follows a pattern, and and the bad guys get caught, and the victims maybe aren't totally innocent. Maybe at least to the sense that we can talk about, well, we could have avoided that if we were in that situation, that that is more satisfying and it makes us feel like, okay, it's scary things happen.
SPEAKER_02But we can control the things. We have control, we still have control. We know the pattern.
SPEAKER_01Even though we don't apparently. Um, so that was a good one. The Powells. Uh what about I remember, um, and it's funny because at the time I wasn't following this story at all.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01I had some friends who were following it, and I remembered them talking about this story. It was years ago. This was uh the trial happened, and it was with this woman, Casey Anthony.
SPEAKER_00Yes, Casey Anthony.
SPEAKER_01I remember, and so they would talk about it, but I it's like somebody being into a show that you're not into. It's like they're talking about it, and it's like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I don't know what struggle.
SPEAKER_01It's like it's like uh the D people. Yeah. The RPG people. Like when they're talking, like some of my friends are deep into it. And I'm just like, I I like that you I I get it that the dwarf had an axe. Um you know, and there was a wizard, yeah, and he could juggle, but I don't I don't I don't I can't really join this conversation. Oh, but look, there's a sparkler. Um so so Casey Anthony. So when that verdict came in and she was found not guilty, yeah. I just remember the internet went crazy and my friends went crazy with anger. Yeah they're so angry. It's like, how could it be that this person could get off?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And this was a mom who was accused of murdering her own child. Yes. And she did a bunch of weird stuff. She did a lot of things that looked not good. Really not good. They were really looked bad. Like she made up a whole story to the police about where she worked.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like she worked someplace and she wasn't home and her child was left with a babysitter. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And she made up a couple days, I think, maybe. I'm trying to remember.
SPEAKER_01She made up the whole story, though, that the kid was left with a babysitter, the babysitter ran off with the kid or murdered the kid, or did something with the kid, and that she was at work and that she didn't have she even brought the police to her this place where she didn't work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like, stop me just getting it.
SPEAKER_01So there was just a whole bunch of stuff like that. And then uh uh again, she it was one of these cases where the alleged murderer immediately starts like partying or having fun when after their person disappears.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Yeah, I think there was a bunch of party photos that that came up of her dance like that.
SPEAKER_01Guilty. And people were so mad. But I finally watched that within the last year. I watched that uh series that focused on it. And yeah, boy, she doesn't sound like a great person. And I can't I can't, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if she did it or knew something about it, but I didn't see any evidence.
SPEAKER_02I feel like it all looks really bad for her. And she probably did it. But I do feel like there is enough reasonable doubt that I don't know if I was on the jury if I would have been like, yeah, 100% she did it. Because also the dad probably did something too. Yeah, like the dad was weird, like he's pretty guilty.
SPEAKER_01I think like in if she said something at the end when being asked about, you know, the last time she saw her kid or something, and she was like, my child, the last thing I knew, the last thing I was told is that she was okay. The last thing I was told. Well, what do you mean? Told told by whom? You know, and who what are you talking about? It's so cryptic. So obviously, something happened. She andor the dad know about it. Yeah. But frankly, I'm kind of glad when people like that aren't convicted. Not because I don't want, you know, if they are guilty, I want them to be brought to justice. But I do want a system that doesn't just convict based on how bad of a person he was. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02She's a bad person, but did she do it? I don't know if we can prove that 100%.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, and I and I felt the same way about this Scott Peterson dude who did get convicted, right?
SPEAKER_02He did get convicted.
SPEAKER_01He was another kind of bad guy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. He's a bad guy. All of his interviews, I'm just like, ugh.
SPEAKER_01He did get convicted, but again, it was like, where's the I wasn't convinced completely by the evidence.
SPEAKER_02It was a lot of circumstantial evidence.
SPEAKER_01It was like he was I mean, it again, if he did do it, well, he was convicted of it, so I guess we can say he did it.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Well, and I believe I just watched the newest 2020 special about him, and I believe that he's getting a new trial. But I don't know why or what new evidence has come up, but I will be really interested to see what they say.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell But I I like that our system allows you to be a sleaze ball but not automatically get convicted just because you're a turd. You're a turd, yeah. Uh even though, you know, if that's a crime, then you should be convicted of being a turd, but that doesn't there's necessarily a lot of turds out there, but we don't need to flush them all. Like come on, people, let's make these prosecutors do their job. Uh well, who was the person who would always scream? They'd have a show every night and they'd scream about these cases. I think her name was Nancy Grace.
SPEAKER_02Nancy Grace, well.
SPEAKER_01She hated every per every defendant.
SPEAKER_02She said, Oh, she thinks everyone's guilty.
SPEAKER_01Everyone's guilty. Oh my gosh. You defending yourself is some sort of horrible like lawyers that defend people accused of crimes. And it's like we're we're never sympathetic to defense lawyers or defendants until we're one of them. Right. And then it's like, you yeah, hey. Hold on a minute here. Before you march me off to the gallows to hang me, could we just have a modicum of due process here? Like, can someone produce some evidence? Yeah. Besides the fact that I'm a turd.
SPEAKER_02I'm a turd. Or a style. Admittedly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just so it's such a fascinating. It's just, it's to me, I'm fascinated by the genre, obviously. I love it, but I also am fascinated that there's so many people fascinated with it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And apparently, it's particularly popular with people identifying as female.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I feel like the vast majority of the victims on these shows are female. Is that fair to say?
SPEAKER_01That's true. I've read that that the vast majority of victims in real life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So even though it's extremely unlikely that you will ever get caught but be be murdered by an evil, dis uh deranged serial killer.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01You're much more likely to be murdered by someone who's living in your house right now.
SPEAKER_00Yes. If you're a woman, especially. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Or anyone. Yeah. It's it's like that's why they always suspect the family first. Because uh guess what? They're in the neighborhood every day. Yeah. It's very unlikely that you will ever encounter a serial killer.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01But if you do, you're more likely to be a female, and a serial killer is more likely to be a male.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I only work out so I don't get serial killed.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02That's the only no health benefits. Serial killers only.
SPEAKER_01You work out to avoid getting serial kills. I like that. Yeah. What I was going to say though, because I we mentioned serial killers and we don't have time to go. There's so many serial killers out there. There's Ted Bundy, there's what's the clown guy, John Wayne Gacy?
SPEAKER_02John Wayne Gacy, the Night Stalker.
SPEAKER_01John Wayne Gacy ruined clowns forever.
SPEAKER_02He did, yeah.
SPEAKER_01John Wayne Gacy, Night Stalker, Green River Killer.
SPEAKER_02Golden State.
SPEAKER_01Golden Gate is which one was the one that's Jack Oswald's wife.
SPEAKER_02Golden State Killer.
SPEAKER_01Right. What's her name? Do I do you remember?
SPEAKER_02Michelle McNamara.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Okay, good. That was really worth watching. That was good. And um So there's a lot of those. But we've talked about this before, and it's weird to say it. Say it. But I don't think we can have serial killers in here.
SPEAKER_02I really don't either. Because Yeah. The 70s, 60s and 70s, prime serial killing time.
SPEAKER_01It was great.
SPEAKER_02There was no DNA.
SPEAKER_01I don't know about fingerprints, but records. No. So you could be like Ted Bundy and just go from state to state and it was new all over again.
SPEAKER_02Slither out the light hole in prison. Easy peace out. He did do that.
SPEAKER_00He slithered out a light hole.
SPEAKER_02He lost a bunch of weight and slithered out of the light fixture in prison and escaped.
SPEAKER_01Oh man. I and I just Brilliant. Weird, but anyone, so people who don't like true crime, if they're still listening to this podcast, are like disgusted by the fact that we're regretting, we're like we're just feeling sorry about this. But people who like true crime know exactly what we're talking about. It's like the serial killer is sort of the gold standard for the true crime genre. Yes. It's super interesting. Um, you know, they're always want to know more about them. Um always just we just can't get enough of them. Totally. But now you can't get away with it.
SPEAKER_02I don't think we're getting another one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There's too much DNA and fingerprints and I read stories about them finding killers from crimes, from murders committed decades ago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And either the guys are old men now, or they're dead.
SPEAKER_02Like the Golden State killer.
SPEAKER_01But they're super old. Yeah, they're finding, they're still able to get like these matches now. Yeah. And uh which is why I tell people don't necessarily give your money to uh give your uh DNA to uh those genealogy companies because you're they might not get you, but they might get your your your grandpa. Your grandpa or grandpa's gonna be hauled out of his easy chair and it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_02He thought he got away with it.
SPEAKER_00What did I do that?
SPEAKER_01Dang it. Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_00So close.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, I did have that bad streak back in the 70s. And it was something like that where uh a I'm blending all these stories in my head, but I recently in the last month have read two or three stories where they've found you know, there was like two killings in the mountains near this mountain resort, two young women killed, like 30, 40, 50 years ago. They never had any leads, and they just were able to do the DNA matching and find.
SPEAKER_02Someone's grandson did a DNA test. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so they find him. And and and there was, I know there was one family where the guy was still alive and he was like a grandpa or something, just like that. And and oh no, he'd already passed on. He had already passed on, and he was either the dad or the grandfather, but he pretty much had lived a normal life after his killing spree. And was like a normal, like so-called normal person, and who knows what his life was actually like and how horrible it was, or whether he even remembered it. But the the family member was something like, wow, you just never know a person. We thought dad was just normally weird. Um, but yeah, I don't think we will have I think we will have people do much more dramatic things, like they'll kill a lot of people all at once doing something horrible, like shooting up a place or blowing up something. Right. So I will of course have that kind of thing, but we won't have this thing where the person escapes detection for months or years or decades. Yeah. I don't think so. And that's ultimately I'm glad about that.
SPEAKER_02That's good.
SPEAKER_01But what are these people doing now?
SPEAKER_02What are we gonna watch though?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what are we gonna What are we gonna watch? What about us? Have you thought about us? Hey, how about the victims of true crime deprivation?
SPEAKER_02We're starving for more. We need this. Has anyone thought about us? A lot of free time on my hands.
SPEAKER_01Come on, serial killers out there, help your game.
SPEAKER_02Come on, mail someone a letter so we get your DNA. Something.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness. Well, I think we've uh gotten people excited about true crime.
SPEAKER_02I sure hope so.
SPEAKER_01And I think we've scratched the surface anyway on why people like this genre so much. It is a fascinating one, and um and it's certainly not going anywhere. There's tons and tons of places for you to encounter this topic, and I'm sure many of you do. So uh thank you all for joining us for this episode. Thanks, Jamie, for doing this. This has been great.
SPEAKER_02Thanks so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01And I want to also thank you for uh helping us get started on our social media presence.
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And so that's exciting. Jamie's doing that for us uh with Gusto, so that's fantastic. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you have a creepy Keith Morrison voice or just pushing a hand card in a park, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.