Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
THE FAST LANE TO HELL: MORMONS V. CATHOLICS EDITION
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Special guest and former Mormon Jaimee, and former Catholic Ross, discuss the forces that drove them away from religion and toward a flaming eternity. Tangents include: Charles Manson; Ant farms; Hitler; Mother Theresa; Nun Cars; Church Bouncers; worm troughs; polygamy; and gay dads.
SIDE NOTE: Ross refers to the "Act of Contrition" when he really means "Apostles' Creed".
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
Really sucks for the people who played it out straight.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then they're sitting there, so you've got Mother Teresa or whoever, whoever the Mormon equivalent is. Yeah. Sitting next to Hitler, you know, sharing a meatball. They're sharing a meatball sub.
SPEAKER_01In hell. And yeah, no, I'm talking to me. Erase. Take it back.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder what and why. I'm Ross, your host, and today's guest is a remarkable human and my friend Jamie. Hello, Jamie.
SPEAKER_01Hi, Ross.
SPEAKER_00It's great to have you. Great to be here. You were on recently, and everyone told us we need more of Jamie. So uh before we get started though, we are trying to grow this show, and for those of you that are listening to us and enjoy what we're doing here, thank you. And please help us. And you can help us uh in the following ways. Jamie, how can they like us?
SPEAKER_03Ross, they can like us on Instagram at smellslikehumans or on Twitter at smellslikehuman.
SPEAKER_00So please do that. Uh rate us on Apple if that if you're an Apple person, uh Apple Podcast, rate us there, give us a review. And uh also if you're an Android person, I hear you can do that on something called Pod Chaser, and there's probably other ways you can rate and review us. But if you like us, let everybody know. It'll help us. Uh our little uh grassroots shoestring operation grow into from a I guess a little sprig into a really tiny shrub. We'd like to get the shrub level. Um and also the other way you can help us is to share episodes you really enjoyed with your friends who you think might need something to listen to while they clean out their garage or have their teeth cleaned. So let's get into it, shall we? Let's do it. Okay. We know that a lot of humans are into religion in some way, shape, or form. And for many, it's a source of spiritual nourishment, meaning, and community, and we are good with that. But for some of us, for all kinds of reasons, religion just doesn't take. And some of us step away from it. So today we're gonna look at that. Why, for some of us, do we not fit into the whole religion thing? That's what we're gonna be looking at. Now, Jamie, the last time we were together, you mentioned that you were raised in the Mormon faith, right? Correct. And I was raised Catholic, I went to Catholic school, was an altar boy, and the whole nine. Are you still a practitioner of the Mormon faith?
SPEAKER_03I am not.
SPEAKER_00And I am no longer a Catholic, so I must ask you, Jamie. What the hell happened?
SPEAKER_03Ooh, uh so many things.
SPEAKER_00Uh but let me let me help you. Because um this is my knowledge of the Mormon faith. I went to see the Book of Mormon musical.
SPEAKER_03Great.
SPEAKER_00That basically means I don't know anything about the R.
SPEAKER_03You don't need to go to church at all. That's it. That's the religion right there.
SPEAKER_00So uh maybe you can help me out. And those of us out there listening who maybe aren't up to speed on uh what Mormons believe, what's the whole deal with that? What do Mormons believe? How are they different from other Christian faiths?
SPEAKER_03I'm so glad you asked, right?
SPEAKER_00In a nutshell.
SPEAKER_03So basically, the Mormon church was founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith.
SPEAKER_00All right.
SPEAKER_03He was a farm boy, and an angel came to him and told him to go a diggin'.
SPEAKER_00Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_03So the angel Moroni. The angel Moroni came to him and said, You need to go dig up these golden plates.
SPEAKER_00All right. So was he having a dream? Did this come at night?
SPEAKER_03Like I believe. Oh, what happened like in the flesh? In the flesh. An angel came and said, What up, Joe? Yeah, what's up, Joe? Go dig up these plates.
SPEAKER_00Dig up these plates.
SPEAKER_03So he did. And these are uh They're big golden plates um that had uh inscriptions on them. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Almost like like uh Moses and the tablets.
SPEAKER_03Like Moses and the tablets. These were these were golden plates and he uh had to translate them.
SPEAKER_00Where wait, where were they buried exactly?
SPEAKER_03In a hill.
SPEAKER_00In a hill, okay.
SPEAKER_03Uh in his yard. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00What were they it was it in uh was it in the United States? It was in the United States.
SPEAKER_03Oh in upstate New York, I think, is where he was.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so he it was con he didn't have to like get on a boat or a No, it was very convenient.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It was just right there. Okay. Okay. So he digs up these plates and um he has to translate them. Only he can translate them because they're in a language that no one knows.
SPEAKER_00But he knows it.
SPEAKER_03But he knows it because he has a sear stone which is a ro a rock.
SPEAKER_00Oh, a seer stone.
SPEAKER_03A sear stone, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So he can see or Okay, so it's some kind gives you special powers, yes. I got you.
SPEAKER_03And you and he put it in his hat and then he would look at his hat, and the sear stone helped him to translate the language from the plates to paper.
SPEAKER_00That's so awesome. I love this story.
SPEAKER_03A beautiful story.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's cool. It's just so it's magical. I love it. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So he d he he does that.
SPEAKER_03He does that, translates them, and writes the Book of Mormon. Which is uh uh an accompaniment to the Bible.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell So do Mormons also use the Bible?
SPEAKER_03They do, yes. Mormons also use the Bible.
SPEAKER_00Do they go for the Old Testament too?
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_00And they go for the New Testament? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But they have a substance.
SPEAKER_00But mostly it's so they don't.
SPEAKER_03It's way shorter. You don't have to read as much.
SPEAKER_00It's like Cliff Notes.
SPEAKER_03It's the Cliff's notes.
SPEAKER_00So um okay. So if I'm a Mormon, I'm cool with the Bible. The Bible The Bible's great. And I I don't have any objection to whatever's in there. So I so uh that I've c so there's a lot of overlap with other Christian faiths. And and uh to the extent that the Old Testament is okay, then also other faiths that just you know focus on the Old Testament. Okay. But I also have this companion volume which I'm really supposed to be cool with. Like am I really supposed to be down with whatever's in there? Okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I guess it's probably more about the rules of being a Mormon and like maybe the polygamy aspect, which was a big thing for a long time in the Mormon church.
SPEAKER_00It's not currently so is it allowed anymore?
SPEAKER_03Or is that not so not mainstream Mormons do not practice polygamy. Right. But there's an offshoot uh called the the fundamentalist Mormons who still practice polygamy.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Okay. And um so I can still be like can I still go to this can I go to any Mormon church if I'm a polygamist? Or do I can I only go to the offshoot church?
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus It's pretty frowned upon in mainstream Mormonism now.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03The idea at the time being that um you know you wanna you wanna build up your numbers, right? It's a new church. Yes. You gotta build up your numbers. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Got to get the numbers up.
SPEAKER_03You gotta get the numbers up so you just have a bunch of babies, and the quickest way to do that is to have a bunch of wives. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Now I've heard people you know, and that's a place that's sort of a low-hanging fruit for a lot of people that know nothing about Mormonism and they go right for the polygamy. Totally. So I'm glad you clarified that that's it's not a thing that mainstream Mormonism practices. Trevor Burrus, Jr. But I also wonder about like the functionality of that just in general, multiple partners or multiple wives.
SPEAKER_03Because complicated, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00I know that the wives that I have known wouldn't mind having a little help.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, just in dealing with me.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Like it would be just like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Can you take him tonight? I'm sick of him.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Or for the next month. Like, can we rotate this thing? I'm looking at the color-coded calendar and uh I definitely I'm not banging him tonight.
SPEAKER_03You gotta do it.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. I don't care if it's his birthday. So um that's great. So yeah, so that's helpful to know. So really, other than the fact that it's a new story, a new it's got kind of a more local US-based story. It's this the origin story doesn't sound to me personally any more fantastical than any other origin story. They all sound to me a little magical and creative.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um okay, so that's good. So what happened? Like, so you were tell me like you were born into the faith. I was, yeah. And so tell me a little bit about how it started for you and then where you decided this wasn't the best fit for you.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Uh so I was born into it. Um my parents were both Mormon. Um however, my dad was um gay.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03And he was upfront about this, he knew this about himself. Um, and his bishop told him basically that um if you get married to a woman, it'll cure you of being gay. So he got married, and yep.
SPEAKER_00If you get married to a woman, it'll cure you of. It'll cure you. And your dad was at that point, was he thinking?
SPEAKER_03He's like, this is a surefire fix, this is great.
SPEAKER_00Well, so he was thinking like this was a bad i he shouldn't feel to be that way.
SPEAKER_03Yes, Mormons do not believe in homosexuality. If you are gay, that's fine. You can be gay, you can just never have a partner. You can't practice it. You can be gay, you just can't ever find true love.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell So your dad was thinking at that time, was he in the space of like, oh, so I need to resolve this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I need to resolve it. I want to be a Mormon. Something's wrong with me, and I need to fix it. Okay, I got you. Uh he was raised Mormon, he went on a mission, the whole nine yards.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um so he got married to my biological mom, and they were married for eight years. Um and then he was like, well, nuts. That didn't work. Yeah. Still gay. So um, surprise. Surprise, surprise.
SPEAKER_00Didn't work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And she was Mormon, I'm assuming. She was Mormon, yes. Okay. So that realization comes to him, and he then does what?
SPEAKER_03So they get divorced. Um I was I think I was around three at the time. So I didn't really know I don't really remember my parents ever being married.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um, but she got custody of us, and one of the because they're not going to give a gay man custody in Utah. Oh, yeah, that sucks. Yeah. Um but she had custody of us, and one of the stipulations of the divorce was when we stayed with my dad on the weekends, um, he had to take us to church. So I distinctly remember my dad like taking us there and like coming in in his suit, and then church is three hours long, by the way. In Mormon church is three hours long.
SPEAKER_00Too long. That's way too long, Jamie. I can't do three hours.
SPEAKER_03Way too long.
SPEAKER_00I couldn't do three hours of a birthday party.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's too much. I only have so much material, I can't be on for three hours. So uh he would stay so there's three parts to church. There's the sacrament meeting, which is an hour, and that's everybody um gets together in a room and you sing hymns, and there's people um giving speeches. Okay. And then you take the sacrament, which is uh wonder bread shredded up into little pieces, and the little thimbleful of water. Okay, so I think it's like the Catholic equivalent of of Mass, right?
SPEAKER_00Like, it's the Yeah. So you it's the Eucharist or the communion wafer and then uh wine. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Wine.
SPEAKER_03But we can't drink. If you're Mormon, you can't drink. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's an important thing for people to know.
SPEAKER_03You cannot drink, and you you're not even supposed to have coffee or caffeine, anything that like changes your state of mind chemically.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell So what about uh the story of uh Jesus performing the miracle at the wedding where he changed water into wine because they ran out of booze?
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus Yeah, we just kind of glaze over that whole situation.
SPEAKER_00That's fine. There's a lot of glazing I noticed in religion. There's a lot of glazing and sliding around things. Yeah. And uh not only in the faith uh or the way the religion is um taught, but also in how people practice it. There's a lot of sliding. Yes. Uh in in my world, they used to call that the buffet Catholics. It's like, I'm gonna take this, but not this. Right. I believe in these things, but this thing here is a little weird, so I'm just not gonna take that. No dessert today.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Which I found actually really interesting when I was like in in middle school and high school when my friends would find out about my dad being gay. And my Mormon friends, you know. Yeah. And and they knew me and loved me and loved my dad, and they were always like super cool.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03But then, you know, you go to church on Sunday and you're they're like, that's bad. It was a hard thing for me to come to terms with with my Mormon friends. It's like, do you you know me and you love me, but so that sounds like it would hurt. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so you're but you're still practicing the faith.
SPEAKER_03Yes. At this point in time I really went on a tangent there, didn't I? I got to get back to seconds.
SPEAKER_00Tangents are the like the grist of this. That's right.
SPEAKER_03It's all tangents. Um Yeah. So so at the time, you know, when my dad my dad would take us to church on Sundays and he would stay with us through the sacrament meeting. But then the second part of church.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, more.
SPEAKER_03There's more. There's so much more. You go uh as a kid, you would go trying to remember what it was called. All the kids go to a certain class and you all have an hour-long lesson. And then after that lesson, you each go to your gender-specific class.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Wow, that's just a lot of stuff.
SPEAKER_03It's so much church.
SPEAKER_00And it's three hours is this on a Sunday?
SPEAKER_03Especially as a kid. Yeah. On a Sunday. Oh, I would be able to do that. Beautiful outside. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So what are the adults doing while the kids are getting indoctrinated intensively?
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus Well, my dad would leave.
SPEAKER_00Smart.
SPEAKER_03Smart. And then he would come pick us up after, still in his suit, like pretending like he stayed through the whole church. A little bit for show.
SPEAKER_00I got you. I like it.
SPEAKER_03The adults, though, normally there's a same kind of a thing. You go to your class together, and then there's a gender-specific adult class that you go to.
SPEAKER_00I'm not going to ask this question right. I just thought of it. But when at one point I was living in a community and I really liked playing pickup basketball. And I found out that there was this group that met a certain night a week at this gym and they had these pretty intense pickup games. Turns out they were all Mormon. And when I started to show up, I was the only non-Mormon. And they would ask me a question that was the Mormon equivalent of what church do you go to? But it was like it wasn't like what tribe are you in, but it was like what something?
SPEAKER_01There are tribes. Maybe it was Mormon religion.
SPEAKER_00Maybe it was tribe. I just don't know. They were asking me like, where are you? And I would say, I'm not in anything. I just like basketball. And they always, uh to their credit, they let me play. But if once they found out I wasn't Mormon, they it definitely was a puzzlement to them that why was I there and how should they interact with me?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was never it was clear that- it was clear that we were never going to be friends.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, talk about tangents. So so when did this all fall apart for your family? Oh. And you particularly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So basically, I mean, I always hated going to church. And I would like pretend to be sick or try to sleep in as long as possible, which so in it when you're Mormon, there's like a couple different times uh of day that you go to church. There's you have your wardhouse, and each wardhouse has a bishop, right?
SPEAKER_00And then they have his two Maybe that was what they were asking me as what ward were.
SPEAKER_03What ward were you in? That could be it. Yeah. For sure. So um your time was either like 9 a.m. or noon.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03And I mean, I guess there's pros and cons to both, but the n the 9 a.m. as a kid sucked, right? You have to wake up early on a Sunday to go to church.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I would I would not make it.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, horrible. And there's fast Sundays where you have to fast all day.
SPEAKER_00Oh come on, man. Yeah you gotta have something.
SPEAKER_03And at sacrament meeting on fast Sundays, it's open mic night. So you can anybody in the ward can get up and bear their testimony. Which basically you just go up and they give you a mic and you can talk about whatever you want. Usually if a kid goes up, he says, um, he or she says, uh I know the church is true. I love my mom and dad. Joseph Smith's a true prophet. Amen. Those are the three sticking points.
SPEAKER_00Anybody ever do a little uh a little comedy or a little maybe I don't remember it ever being funny.
SPEAKER_03That would be great, though.
SPEAKER_00A rap battle or something. Okay.
SPEAKER_03So yeah.
SPEAKER_00A lot of stuff.
SPEAKER_03Lots of stuff. Uh you're asking me when it all went out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like what what was there a precipitating event?
SPEAKER_03Not necessarily. I think when I was like 10 years old is when my dad actually like sat me and my siblings down and and told us that he was gay. And we were like, yeah, we know you've lived with your roommate for the last, you know, five years.
SPEAKER_00So you weren't surprised?
SPEAKER_03We were not surprised. But also it was really like every time I would go to church and they would talk about the issue of homosexuality, I would just be like seething mad and argumentative to my teachers. Um because it's a deeply personal issue.
SPEAKER_00Of course. You can't be the only person in that situation in the church.
SPEAKER_03Right.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03But so I mean, in my particular church, I was the only person, at least that had a a parent or sibling or anything that was out, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was out. So we were others that weren't out. I think guaranteeing you right now.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah. So um yeah, it was always uh that was always just a thing that I just couldn't wrap my head around.
SPEAKER_00Right. So that starts the kind of the skip.
SPEAKER_03Questioning, you start questioning, and then we they don't like it when you start questioning.
SPEAKER_00No, religion doesn't like questions. Religion doesn't like questions. You're supposed to it's why it's called faith. Right. At some point you just have to say it all makes sense and God has a problem.
SPEAKER_03I trust that this is a thing.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Um but when I was 14, um I decided to move in with my dad and he got full custody of me and then I stopped going to church. And then I got excommunicated.
SPEAKER_00Whoa, okay. So did he stop going?
SPEAKER_03Yes. Actually, my dad, um, when he decided to um be himself, uh there's a thing in the Mormon religion, it's like a church court. So you go to court and basically they determine whether um you're worthy of staying in the church or not, and they deemed him unworthy and he was excommunicated.
SPEAKER_00So um and then you were excommunicated as a result of that, or are you?
SPEAKER_03I requested that. You don't have to. You can just stop going to church, right? But um I requested to because I wanted my name off of the records, um, I wanted to not be contacted. There's a a thing in the Mormon religion called the Relief Society, which is the adult women uh third part of church. Does that make sense? Yeah. Their third their class. The Relief Society are relentless. They will hunt you down, they'll leave little baskets of treats on your door trying to get you back.
SPEAKER_00That part sounds okay.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus It's the snacks are great. I'll say one thing about the Mormons. They make delicious food and baked goods. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Check out the Mormons. Check out the Mormons. They've got great snacks.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr. You can't have alcohol or caffeine or anything, but sugar, sugar, great.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I like that they made that allowance. Okay. So and let me just take a moment to say write on to your dad for saying, you know what, I'm going to be I think you said he's going to be himself.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And uh I feel really positive about that. So write on for that. And write on for you, kind of in your own journey, saying, yeah, this is not for me either. And so once that happened, do you feel like your life changed in any way? Well, you didn't go to these three-hour jam sessions anymore.
SPEAKER_03No, I didn't have to do that anymore. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00You weren't drinking your thimble full of water.
SPEAKER_03No, I was drinking other things in high school for sure.
SPEAKER_00You went on a different journey.
SPEAKER_03I went on a different uh journey. Yeah, no. It was really interesting what happened after because my the high school that I went to was I'm gonna say like 99% Mormon. There was me and like two Catholic kids. That's it. So some of my friends I feel like struggled with it a little bit. I lost some friends and I was okay with that.
SPEAKER_00Did you feel like happier or lighter or different? Absolutely. You felt better.
SPEAKER_03A hundred percent, yes.
SPEAKER_00That's that's the most important thing, I think. And as a teenager, it's hard to feel you know, you're there's so many things buffeting you, especially at that age. Yeah. So many pressures, so many concerns that you're managing and changes in your life. And so it's great that when you made that change, it felt authentic and good.
SPEAKER_03Definitely. And moving into uh my dad's house was just like the best thing that ever happened to me. My dad and his partner, they were together for 20 years and raised me, and um the level of care and love was just um a hundred percent different living with them than it was living with my biological mother. That is just a way happier life. Yeah. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00That is so awesome. And and really, it's really encouraging to know that. Because I don't know if it ever felt like there was Did you ever feel during that before you made the decision or before he made the decision, did you ever feel like it was just there was no way out of it that you were stuck in it?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And then you did it.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Especially being a female in the uh Mormon religion, you're supposed to be submissive and subservient and there's no leadership roles in the church for women, it's all uh patriarchal. Um so yeah, it was liberating, I think, to like do something for myself and kind of take ownership of something.
SPEAKER_00And so that's that's cool to know. And then as you've journeyed on several years beyond those moments, um, do you find yourself embracing another faith or are you staying where where are you where have you arrived at this moment in terms of faith or religion? Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
SPEAKER_03Nope I'm just I'm just kicking ass and taking names, doing my thing.
SPEAKER_00I can attest to that, ladies and gentlemen. Anyone listening, she does do that.
SPEAKER_03So what about you, Ross? What is your background?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell I have these big picture issues that uh uh uh after fashion started bugging me more and more, like uh the whole origin story, the Garden of Eden. Like I started when I really started thinking about it, and none of these things are original. I know other people have talked about this, and I know there's all kinds of responses to them. But I'm thinking, okay, so God sets up this, He creates human beings, Adam and Eve, and he creates this utopian environment for them, but he's gonna stick a little trick in there for them. Uh you know, hey, you can do anything you want, but don't eat from the tree of knowledge.
SPEAKER_03Don't eat this delicious fruit. Don't eat this apple. It tastes really good, but don't eat it.
SPEAKER_00And if you do, you're doomed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And by the way, I already know you're gonna do it, but I'm gonna just set it up anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, what? So it just like it's like telling Homer Simpson that you can do anything you want, but don't eat from the donut tree. Yeah. So that. And then the whole thing, like, he gets pissed off at people because we suck. So then he just creates this huge flood.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then the whole Noah story.
SPEAKER_03And also with the Garden of Eden thing, like he like blames Eve immediately, right? And he's um omnipotent. Right. And Adam's like, well, I didn't do it. And he's like, yeah, okay. I'll take your word for it. You don't you know that? Don't you really know that he ate that?
SPEAKER_00Adam throws Eve under the bus. And God's all down with it. Plus he set up the whole thing. That's that thing. That really bothers me. And we're gonna come back to that. And the and then uh Joseph and the virgin birth, and like they never really talk about what that was like for Joseph, because it's like that story where the angel comes to Joseph and says, Hey, your wife is got a bun in the oven and it's not yours, and you haven't even had sex with her yet. So just deal with it. But it's cool. And Joseph is like, wow. Yeah, they just cool, me. That just gets yeah, it's like how did um and then the whole ant farm thing. So I've always thought of this like if I were a guy, so do you remember these things called ant farms? Yes. All right. So this is how I think about all this stuff. It's very simple. So you get an ant farm, and then what it was is this little, like, I don't know, what was it, like 12 by 10 little frame glassiglass thing? Plexiglass with a plastic frame around it, and there would be ants inside. And the idea is if you're a kid, you'd watch these ants build tunnels and do all the things that ants do, which by the way, isn't a lot of stuff. But you that's was a cool thing. And then you'd watch that until your ants croaked, and then you'd get new ants, or whatever. Uh I don't know if any kid actually ever wanted one of these things. I never wanted one.
SPEAKER_03Can you feed them? I feel like that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you can feed them. You can like change their life somehow, you can shake it up. So you're kind of my point is you're kind of god of the ants.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00The ants don't really know you're there.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00They're just living their best life in this restricted situation, but that's your universe, universe, they're good with it. So that's cool. You you control the fate of these ants, and you can kill the ants, you can shake up their, you can ruin their tunnels, you can feed them, you can not feed them, you can introduce killer ants, you can do whatever you want to these ants. So why would you also, on top of having total control over these ants, why would you also say, but you have to worship me?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's like, what's the why would I even why would that even occur to me? If I have the total power over these ants, I don't also need them to bow down and kiss my feet to make me feel it's like, what is I would have to have a pretty fragile ego structure to have total power over something and still say, Worship me. Yeah, you gotta worship me, you gotta make sacrifices to me. You can't, ants, you can't like have any other cool gods in your mind that you worship. So that's always bothered me. Um another thing that's bothered me just still on the big picture things is the whole that what people always say when you ask these questions is they say, Yeah, well, God set up the environment, but man has free will. People have free will. So he sets up these choices, he puts the fork in the road, and you choose the one option or the other option, and that determines your fate. And again, I come back to, well, yeah, but no.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's like God has made, he's made a movie.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He already knows what happens in the movie. He's put all the characters in the movie, he's totally directed this movie to go in a certain direction, and he's already seen it. Right. So it'd be like, yeah, so like you're watching this, you what's a good movie these days? What's a cool movie? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. Titanic.
SPEAKER_00Uh the Titanic was a long time ago, but at least everyone's heard of it. I can't think of a current one. But anyway, pick your favorite movie in your mind. But like the Titanic, and you're watching this movie and you're like, maybe they won't hit the iceberg this time. You know they're gonna hit the iceberg. But maybe they won't. Maybe, maybe they'll the captain will choose a different course this time. Maybe, maybe people won't drown this time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so to me, that just doesn't make sense. It sounds a little like something somebody would make up. And I get that it a couple thousand years ago that people were a little less likely to ask questions because people had, you know, peep there have been gods for a long time. You go back into antiquity and people were used to having gods, multiple gods. It makes sense.
SPEAKER_03There was less entertainment then, right? Like nothing to watch.
SPEAKER_00There was no entertainment.
SPEAKER_03You gotta make up something.
SPEAKER_00You know what the entertainment was in Rome? Going to the public poop house and sh and sitting there in public, pooping it out and having conversations with your s your neighbors. So all of those things, and then the last thing, well, and all the anti-gay stuff and all that stuff kept just driving me away um farther and farther as I got older. Yeah. And then this idea that um being poor and miserable is considered a virtue.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And being rich is sinful. And so I was thinking, like, well, who does this help?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Who does this oppress? Well, it kind of keeps the poor in the game. Like, you're it's good for you. Your reward will be in heaven. Yes. So you continue to suffer and suffer good. And us rich people, yeah, we're we're sinners, we're going to hell. Don't mind us in our limos and eating our fancy dinners and wearing our fancy clothes, right? It se it seems kind of like a mind game playing against the poor.
SPEAKER_03So And in the Mormon religion, um, you have what's called tithing. I don't know if you have that in Catholicism.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's uh you're supposed to give money to the church everywhere.
SPEAKER_03So when I was a kid, it's 10% of whatever you make. Right. But when I was a kid, I was like babysitting, I had allowance, and I had to give 10% as a kid to the church.
SPEAKER_00It's messed up.
SPEAKER_03It's messed up, man.
SPEAKER_00And you have to go to a three-hour gig and you should be paying me for this.
SPEAKER_03Fasting.
SPEAKER_00So those are the big picture things that created dissonance for me. And over the years, I just it kind of the wedge between me and the Catholic faith got bigger and bigger and bigger. But I really, really, really was trying to make it work in my early 20s, but it just things just kept going wrong. There were a couple of little picture things that happened that were important. One, one, one big moment for me where this star this dissonance started growing was um, so when we moved to California, I uh couldn't get into the Catholic school right away. So I started out in Catholic school, we moved to California, I get on a waiting a wait list.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Catholic wait list to get into the Catholic school. In the meantime, I got to go to public school. I'd never been.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_00So I go to public school and I do that for the for a whole year.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And then uh then I get in for the next season of Catholic school. So I miss a season and then I'm getting in. So I go to confession like a good Catholic in between these two things. And uh I go to confession, and the priest asks me um after I get make my confession to say while I'm in the confessional. They always would so what they'll do if you don't know. So you're in confession, you confess your sins, whatever they are, you know, murder, whatever. And then the priest gives you, like, okay, I want you to say five Hail Marys and three our fathers and beat it. And then you go out and you do that out there in the body of the church, okay, and then you're good to go. And by the way, I kind of like that moment because then you're like, I'm totally clean now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is great.
SPEAKER_00Like all this badness that was in me is gone. As a kid, I really like that feeling. It only lasted like an hour because then I would get into something. Right. And then I'd be like, ah, I can feel the dirt, I can feel the soil building on my soul. But what happened this time was for whatever reason, the priest says, uh, while you're sitting in here, kneeling in your little dark space, and they're like you're looking at through this like very like opaque.
SPEAKER_02We've seen this movie before.
SPEAKER_00And he says, um, say the act of contrition. Uh-oh. Which was a pretty longer, like it's a longer prayer, and it wasn't like one that I ever really knew that well. Yeah. But I'd been out of the game for a year. I hadn't been saying that. That's like a thing you would only say in Catholic school.
SPEAKER_02I have no idea what that is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a long, it's a long prayer.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Felt long to me. And so I start off on this thing, and uh I realize I do not know the lines. And by the way, I am one of these people I have performed in numerous scripted shows over the years. Uh and uh I'm one of these actors who, yeah, because there's actors that I know who like always know their lines forever, and they recite, you know, uh lines from Shakespeare or whatever plays they've been in, they'll do a great job of just cr totally recreating the moment. And for me, not only do I not remember my lines, I don't even remember the shows that I've been in until I look at my acting resume. It's like and I'll be like, oh crap, I was in that. So um, so yeah, I don't remember like the moment the show closes, I don't remember. So I I didn't remember this prayer. So I get like two lines in, and I'm totally I go up on my lines and I'm like, uh, and the priest flips his wig. He just goes all over. I mean, he's like really mad. Oh no, I didn't. This is what flipped him. So he's like, hey, you don't know this? I'm like, no, I'm sorry, I forgot it. And he says, Where do you go to school?
SPEAKER_02Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_00And so this is the kind of crap that happened to me all the time as a Catholic kid because you get these dilemmas presented to you by these priests and nuns, and you never really know what the right answer is. And then whatever your my instinct was, it was almost always wrong. So I say to myself, self, you the last season you spent in public school, but now it's summer, and technically, the next season, I'm gonna be in this school, this Catholic school that the priest was in charge of. So I was like, what's the truth? The truth is I go, I go to that school. I go to the Catholic school. So I said, I go to this this school. And that's what flipped him, because he thought I was a kid in Catholic school, you know, that didn't have a season off, and I didn't know this fundamental prayer, which I should have known, I freely admit. And then he went nuts and he said, get out he wouldn't give me my penance, which is what the you know, the prayers you say. Yeah. He said, get out you should be ashamed of yourself, and you get out of this confessional right now. He threw me out of confessional.
SPEAKER_03I was not what you want.
SPEAKER_00Stunned.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I failed confession.
SPEAKER_03I'm picturing like the Pope's hat. I don't know if the priests wear Pope's hats, but I'm picturing them just like spinning. Yes, spinning on top of his head.
SPEAKER_00He was enraged. And as a kid, I'm like stunned because I flunked confession. Like I didn't get forgiven. I made it worse. So that started me though thinking like, maybe this, maybe I maybe I don't get this. Maybe I don't get this, maybe I'm not really. But it was just a just a and then later on, so now fax forward, I'm a teenager, but I'm in college. Okay. So I'm late teens, maybe I'm 20, and I'm really trying to to to get back. Yeah. And really, really be in it. And um this is my last full try. And I was working at the time at an outdoor job where it was really sweaty and dirty, and I wore a hat. And um Was it a Pope pat? Uh it wasn't a Popat. Unfortunately, if it had, this probably wouldn't have happened. So I was wearing uh it was like a baseball style hat. And after my hair stands straight up when it's like been under a hat. So it it looks very frightening. Even today, when I wake up in the morning, it's like uh eraser head. It's like, what? It's scary. And um, it's humorous to me, but not to any other living person. So I knew that I I knew that when you go into a Catholic church, if you're a man, you're supposed to take off your hat. If you're a woman, you're supposed to put on a hat in the old days, which never I didn't understand why that was. Women wear a hat, men take off your hat. Um if you get those two things reversed, something bad happens.
SPEAKER_03You're in trouble.
SPEAKER_00So I think to myself, again, these are these these choice points, and I always chose wrong. I say, well, I want to stop off at church. That's a good thing. But if I take off this hat, plus I was really dirty.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So I know I did I looked bad because I had this outdoor job, which was dirty and greasy, and I had the hat, and I take off the hat, I'm gonna look insane. I'm gonna look like the devil has arrived. So I say, what am I gonna do? I know this is my strategy.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00I'll stand in the very, very back. I won't I won't go to communion, I won't do any of that stuff, I won't present myself, but I'll keep the hat on. But I'll be in the back.
SPEAKER_03No one will notice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, nobody will notice. So that's what I do. I in church, I'm like 18 or 19, I'm doing the right thing. I'm trying to get good with my faith. I want to be a Catholic, I want to do it right, and I'm doing it. And all of a sudden, somebody taps me, and I wouldn't really call it a tap. It's almost more of a smack on the shoulder, like boom, boom, boom. And it's like I turn around, there's this big old dude. Now in the Catholic Church, there were all these Usher dudes that would loiter in the back, and they were kind of enforcers for God. And if there was any trouble, they would break bad on you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And this guy, this guy, he he looks at me and I look at him, and he gives me like this thumb, like, get, you know. Get out of here. Yeah. He's like, get me, like, see, no, he's well, he's like, come on, like, come on back here so I can rough you up, kind of thing. So he takes me back and right near the the door, and he's like, What are you doing wearing that hat? And I'm like, I, you know, it's I gotta wear the hat.
SPEAKER_02He says, You get out of here. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00So I said, I'm leaving. So I left. And then as I'm leaving, I'm feel again feeling awful, feeling like I flunked going to church. Uh and then as I'm leaving, he kind of like tries to come out, like he realized, wait a minute, this is the reverse of what we're supposed to be doing. Yeah, we're not supposed to be throwing people out of church. He tries to like get me to come back, but I'm like, no, I'm out.
SPEAKER_02I'm over it.
SPEAKER_00And this is all funny now because now you can go to church wearing a clown suit and nobody says Jack.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But back then there was supposed to be this like when I was a little kid, we actually wore suits.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00But but but now you can show up in a pair of swim fins, a snorkel, and a bag of apples, and nobody says Jack. Um so so that and just a million other things just kept pushing me away and away and away. Yeah. And um and then once I really started looking at like the people in my life and what was important to me. And um, you know, I had lots of people in my life that were uh living in a way that was inconsistent with the teachings of religion. And so I had to make a choice like what's more important to me?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The people in my life, my relationships with them, my beliefs about the world and what kind of person I want to be, or the teachings of this faith, which means I have to exclude a bunch of people. Yeah. I can't I can't appreciate those people, or I have to make exceptions in my mind. Because religion to me is a lot about excluding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's it's including. Including the per people who are willing to say and think and do certain things all the same way. So, Jamie, anything else like stand out to you about your experience as a Mormon?
SPEAKER_03Well, the only thing maybe is um have you ever heard of Baptisms for the Dead?
SPEAKER_00It sounds like a bad movie.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it feels like a bad movie when you're doing it.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I gotta know what this is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so basically um baptisms for the dead are a thing that Mormons do that um when you are twelve, you're able to go to the temple. You have to get a temple recommend. You have to have like a little card to get into the temple, you have to be worthy and whatnot. Um but um they do baptisms for the dead, basically baptizing people that have died um in case they change their mind in the afterlife about whether they want to be Mormon or not.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so making sure that I'm tracking this. So if somebody dies, they die a Mormon.
SPEAKER_03They don't die. No, these are people that were not Mormon in real life. Oh, they weren't Mormon like they were not like you, but when you die, yeah, yeah. So uh mostly I feel like children do this. They take uh a bunch of kids and you go to the temple and they dunk you like 30 times in a row and they say, I baptize you in the name of blank dunk. I baptize you in the name of blank dunk and uh baptize people that have died.
SPEAKER_00Um But I guess my question is so so I'm not a Mormon, I die.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00And I decide in the in the afterlife. In the afterlife, wherever I am at that point. Where do and where am I?
SPEAKER_03You're in the uh I think it's the terrestrial kingdom. There's three kingdoms celestial, celestial, terrestrial. That's terrestrial's the bad one.
SPEAKER_00I'm in a holding tank.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're not doing great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I I'm like, oh, this sucks. I hate I hate the food here. I I don't have a view.
SPEAKER_03God, they baptized me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's uh there's bed bugs. I want to be a Mormon. Yes. I blew it in life. Blew it. Man, I like this by the way. I like that you can just do whatever.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You just go nuts in life, and then you're like, okay. Uh I want to be a Mormon. And then what's happening on the earth is they're taking so they're using you as a surrogate for them?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So they grab you.
SPEAKER_03You're sitting there in hell, like, dang it, I wish I would have been a Mormon. And then a 12-year-old gets dunked.
SPEAKER_00Dunked.
SPEAKER_03And then you're like score.
SPEAKER_00How do they know? Is there like a text? How do they know you're in this uh holding tank and you're like, hey everybody, this uh graduate to Mormon.
SPEAKER_03There's like a I think like a screen, like when you're watching the Super Bowl, there's like a screen and you're just like, oh, maybe my name's gonna come up.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow. Yeah. So but like do they just assume that people have changed their mind? Like how do they know?
SPEAKER_03I don't know.
SPEAKER_00So some people might like say, no way, I don't want to be a Mormon.
SPEAKER_03And they actually got in a lot of hot water because um they were baptizing Holocaust victims, and that was frowned upon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's kind of a big jump.
SPEAKER_03They they baptized like a lot of Holocaust victims, um, and they got in trouble and they kind of re they changed their policy basically. They don't baptize Holocaust victims anymore, but they did baptize Anne Frank. That was, I think, the one they got in a lot of trouble for.
SPEAKER_00That is bold. It's a bold move, yeah. That is bold.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You gotta g you gotta give them credit for just having uh having the stones to go out and go bathing.
SPEAKER_03Go go ham. Do you want to know some um notable characters that have been baptized for the dead?
SPEAKER_00Sure I do.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so they've baptized Steve Irwin.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Elvis, of course.
SPEAKER_03Hitler. Casey changes his mind. You well, you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00You might yeah, I I mean, uh yeah. Yeah, sometimes you you look back at your life and you think I might have made a couple mistakes. I could have done it better.
SPEAKER_03I could have done it better.
SPEAKER_00Maybe a re reset. Maybe this mustache was a mistake. Just rethink it. Just rethink it. Okay. Uh Gandhi. Gandhi, of course.
SPEAKER_03Pope John Paul II. Get him in there. Uh Princess Die were some uh notable baptism.
SPEAKER_00I like this. This is sort of Scientology-esque in that they're going for the big names.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Have they done Tom Cruise? Because he likes it.
SPEAKER_03He's not dead yet, though.
SPEAKER_00Oh well, just his career. No, I'm kidding.
SPEAKER_03We're waiting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, his career is going great because they keep making mission impossible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh wow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um there's some that they attempted to baptize but were blocked from doing so. I don't know who blocks them, but um they were not allowed to baptize Charles Manson. Bummer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, too bad, Chuck.
SPEAKER_03Too bad. Uh Steven Paddock, who was the shooter in Vegas that killed 58 people. Tried. Couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_00Why did they want him?
SPEAKER_03I'm not sure. Come on. Really boosting the numbers there.
SPEAKER_00There is yeah, you gotta I mean Hitler, Manson.
SPEAKER_03Do you want these guys on your team? Do you want yeah?
SPEAKER_00How was that a good thing for your community? I'm not sure. But they were blocked.
SPEAKER_03But they were blocked, so they couldn't be blocked. But Hitler wasn't. Hitler's fair game.
SPEAKER_00Once you let Hitler into the club, I don't really know what your standards are. Can you really say that there are standards to get into the faith? Maybe that's good.
SPEAKER_03I guess. Take him. We don't want him. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Anybody else got blocked?
SPEAKER_03The only other notable one is Devin Patrick Kelly, who was the shooter in Texas that killed 25 people.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I mean I guess I I guess on the one hand, like I've always kind of been attracted to the idea that you're always will be accepted, no matter how bad you are, as long as you raise your hand at some point and say, you know what, uh kidding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I really want to be with God. Um and I always I always liked that because I felt like, okay, I always have a chance. Right. But I also kind of resented it in the following way. Yeah. In that you can be this horrible person. And in the Catholic faith, you can be a horrible person your whole life.
SPEAKER_03And just go to confessional.
SPEAKER_00Well, on your deathbed, if you just get you basically get um you do your confession, then you're good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I had to do all this stuff. And like for you, like going to these three hour Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And also repenting is what we call it in the Mormon. Yeah, yeah. You just repent for your sins and then they're forgiven. Yeah. So it's like But you feel really guilty about it and you give yourself an ulcer from worrying about like all the bad things you did.
SPEAKER_00Right. But it's really sucks for the people who played it out straight.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then they're sitting there, so you've got Mother Teresa or whoever, whoever the Mormon equivalent is, sitting next to Hitler, you know, sharing a meatball sub.
SPEAKER_01In hell.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, no, I'm talking to me.
SPEAKER_01Erase, take it back.
SPEAKER_00But they're like they're both looking at each other like, you we're in the same place.
SPEAKER_01We're together now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they're like playing bingo. I just I don't know. But that's fascinating. The baptism of the dead. But that's cool, though. That's a cool element. I like their take.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The Mormons have interesting takes on things. Totally. I want to tell you about the nun car.
SPEAKER_03I would love nothing more than to hear about the nun car.
SPEAKER_00I want to tell I just want to tell a little story about the nun car because it was uh one other one of these events, and it wasn't necessarily one that It wasn't necessarily one that propelled me away from the faith, but it was something that was just one example of the kinds of things that would happen. So at this one Catholic school I went to, if you got in trouble for doing whatever, talking or just doing anything, you would be sent to your leaf.
SPEAKER_03Oh and what is a leaf?
SPEAKER_00Well, there it was a um large sort of poster.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And there was a it was like and there were vines drawn on it, and then little construction paper leaves for each kid in the class with their name on it. And when you were good, if you did something really good, uh and I don't know what those things are because I never did.
SPEAKER_02You never did them.
SPEAKER_00But if you did something really good, you would get a star put on your leaf.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And the more good things, that whole front of your leaf and then the inside too, because it opened up and then there would be more. You could have gold stars or beautiful stars over your entire leaf.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Or you could have nothing.
SPEAKER_02Nothing like Rosshead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And when you were sent to your leaf, you would stand in front of this poster which was in the front of the class, your back would be to the rest of the class, and you were supposed to stand there and contemplate your sins and how horrible you were and think about what you were going to do to get right with the nun teacher and with God in general. So one day I was messing around with two other kids, and we got caught, and the nun said, Go stand at your leaf. Okay. So we did. And we stood there for a while. It was near the end of the day. So we might be stood there maybe 45 minutes or so, which was a long time. And then the end of class came, and I, you know, I figured, well, you know, the bell rang, they're gonna let us out of here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's time to go. And uh we kind of started to like, okay, we're gonna leave with the rest of the class. And the nuns said, Where are you going? And we're like, uh, end of school, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, we're out. Got a vamose. I love that. That's very cartoonish. Vamos, we got a skiddle. So um she says, you just keep standing right where you are. Oh no. So I'm like, wow, she's going for it today. This is for real.
SPEAKER_03She's on one.
SPEAKER_00So we do, we continue to stand there until the other two kids start crying. Okay. So she hears us, all the other kids are gone at this point. We're in the classroom by ourselves, and none hears them crying. And she comes over, like, what are you crying about? And they said, uh, we're gonna miss the bus. We gotta make the bus. And I'm like, oh no, bus kids. They're bus kids. I didn't take my I never took the bus either. I wasn't allowed to take the bus. There's a whole side story about the bus driver would feel sorry for us because we had to walk to school in any kind of weather. Any kind of weather, it didn't matter. It could be another Noah's flood, and my mother would be like, You're walking.
SPEAKER_03We're not taking the bus.
SPEAKER_00But the bus driver would sometimes take pity on us and give us free rides. You had to pay for the bus. It wasn't free. And when my mother would find out about us getting a free bus ride, she would go nuts on our butts. She would flip her little po pat. She hated free bus rides. So these kids are bus kids. And so the nun's like, okay, well, you can go. And then she looks at me and says, Do you take the bus? And I'm like, no. And I wasn't crying. No. Because I didn't cry. I didn't cry at the leaf. Plus, I was always in trouble. So for me, it was like if this is just another day. Oh, um. It really was. It really was. It was just absolutely inconsequential for me. Yeah. I was in there for however, I was in there for whatever this punishment was going to be. So I said no. And so she said, Well, you can just keep standing there then. So I was like, okay. So the other kids leave, the nun leaves. I'm standing in this classroom looking at my leaf by myself. So some time starts to go by. Uh it's, you know, 3 30, it's 4, it's 4 30, it's 5. It's 5 30. It's dark outside. She hated you. It's dark inside. I'm in the dark looking at a leaf and thinking, I don't know what I'm ever going to leave.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then what happens? I have to go to the bathroom. I'm going to pee there? Or like, is this forever? Yeah. At some point, another nun comes walking by the classroom. She somehow gets a glimpse of this weird like image of a possible small human standing in the corner.
SPEAKER_03It's like a Blair Witch screen. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was scary. I could tell she was kind of freaked out. Like, Satan. So she comes kind of creeping up slowly, just in case I was a demon. And then she realizes, oh no, this is just a little kid. And so she's like, What are you doing here? And I'm like, sister told me to stand at my leaf. And she just has this look on her face, like, what? Like, no way. So she says, Stay right here. I'll be right back. And she goes scurrying off. And I'm like, oh, and now what's going to happen? Did I was it wrong for me to say? Because I was always guessing wrong. Maybe I shouldn't have said.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00You know? So the next thing that happens is a whole cluster of them, of nuns come in the room. And this is this is in the day when they used to wear the full habits with the wrinkles and the whole thing. Yeah. So it'll all come in and so I'm thinking, oh man, they're going to put a sack on me and beat the crap out of me. This is how I this is how I leave the eye. This is how I leave the earth. But they were all super like, there's so much energy coming off of it. And it was nervous energy. And it was like they weren't gonna they weren't gonna kick my butt.
SPEAKER_03No, they knew they screwed up.
SPEAKER_00I guess they did. And they took me uh quickly in a real like a nun bubble. They escorted me outside to the nun car.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Tell me more. I need to know about this nun car.
SPEAKER_00The nun car.
SPEAKER_03So is it like the Pope Mobile?
SPEAKER_00No, it's much less cool. The Nun car was a car that was donated every like four years to the church from the local Catholic car dealer.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And so they would give a free car to the nuns to use for nun activities, whatever those might be.
SPEAKER_03Who knows?
SPEAKER_00And I would never know what those were. But we all knew about the nun car because it would sit in the parking lot. It was black. Doing nothing because No, it would never go anywhere. It was a black four-door sedan with no options. It was the lowest amount. Whatever the options were, the nun car had nothing.
SPEAKER_03That's the worst thing we could donate.
SPEAKER_00That's the nun car.
unknownTrevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00But it was free and you know, it was a write-off for the dealer, and it kept them good with God and all the right things that happened. So, but I've always was fascinated with the nun cars. Like, what's what's in the nun car? How pass does it go? What do they use it for? So next thing I know, they're opening the doors and they're bustling me into the nun car. And there's four of them. There's a driver nun, a shotgun nun, and two backseats. You're surrounded. I'm in the middle. Yeah, I'm like in a nunch. Like they're they've got me, they got me surrounded. And I'm still not sure. He's like, oh man, are they gonna take me out to an earning field and whack me? Like, what's gonna happen? Where are they taking me? It's like, should I, you know, and this is before telephones, I couldn't call for help. So uh so we start this drive, and I'm thinking, like, I still don't know what's gonna happen, but the days then they start getting all bubbly and friendly. And back in those days, nuns were never bubbly. No, they were never friendly, not to a kid like me, but they were. I'd never seen them like this. It was a miracle. This was a true miracle because they were asking me questions like, what's your favorite sport? And and what's what's your favorite food? And what did you do last summer? And I'm like, what is happening? But I kind of like I'm into this. I'm feeling good about these nuns right now, and I'm riding in the nun car. And then it's like, you know, it's like riding in a limo, you know, you want your friends to see you. And and I'm like, I know it's dark, but I'm kind of hoping that maybe like drive past Steve's house.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you have a little wave. Yeah, I want to, hey Frank A, I'm in the nun car. Nun car, Frank A.
SPEAKER_00It's like I want him to see me, man. Because it's like, this is happening. This is great. And uh so they they take me home, and uh I realized uh when they dropped me off that uh they were worried, like you said. They were worried that it screwed up and that um they didn't like take me to my front door. What they did is they got me out, they said goodnight.
SPEAKER_03Did a drive-by, kicked you out of the car.
SPEAKER_00It was it was getaway car. It was that car laid down some serious rubber.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00Because they did not want the wrath of my mother.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00Little did they know that I lived, I had a large family, which I've mentioned before on the show. There were nine people in my family. And so the fact that I was two hours late.
SPEAKER_03Your parents are like, sweet, Ross isn't coming back.
SPEAKER_00That's always one option. But in this case, the more uh and this was the more normal option is nobody noticed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Nobody noticed I had been gone. And so I walked in and nobody said nothing. And I was really excited about the nun car ride. But then I thought I can't really tell anybody why I got a nun car ride. Two reasons. One, if my mom hated me taking free bus ride, what was gonna happen if she heard about a free nun ride? She would probably just lay me out. But the other thing is, why was I in the nun car? Well, because I was standing at my leaf. Why were you standing at your leaf? Because I was being a goofball in class. And that would have got me in more trouble. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I couldn't tell anybody. Nobody except for me. This is the first of the nun car.
SPEAKER_00This is the first time I've told a story of the nun car. And um, that was probably the height of my religious experience. I never felt more Catholic than when I was riding In the Nun car.
SPEAKER_03In a nun sandwich.
SPEAKER_00With the yeah, the nun witch in the nun bubble, with the nuns all happy, which again, these were Irish nuns. They were surly. They were rough. They were rough and they were mean and they were scary, but not that night.
SPEAKER_03They were your best friends.
SPEAKER_00It was a magical night on so many levels. And that was probably that was my high water mark. Um before we get to the end, I think we should ask. Uh we should find out. So where are you with God at the moment? Do you believe there's a God or some other way or some other spiritual force in your life, or do you just not dealing with that? Or not in that.
SPEAKER_03I don't know that I do, really.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03The only one that like maybe makes a little bit of sense to me is maybe like a reincarnation kind of a thing. Okay. Like instead of just being a a worm trough. What did you just say?
SPEAKER_01A worm?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you just die and then you're buried in the ground and the a worm trough. Yes.
SPEAKER_01A worm trough.
SPEAKER_03That's maybe instead of that, maybe reincarnation could be a thing. I'll come back as like a butterfly or something. That sounds nice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That would be nice. Right. How about a hedgehog?
SPEAKER_03A hedgehog would be great. I would do that.
SPEAKER_00Whatever you believe, that's okay with us.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_00Uh we we just know that for whatever reason and for various specific reasons, it did not stick with us. And we are going to hell.
SPEAKER_03I'll see you there.
SPEAKER_00Um, and we'll be doing a podcast. That's right.
SPEAKER_03It's gonna be hot, but we'll we'll stick with it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'll just we'll just be we'll just power through. Uh our own special corner of hell. So thank you very much for joining us for this episode. Thank you, Jamie. You are a delight, as always.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00You are welcome, and we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you just got thrown out of a confessional or just someone who's lying in a worm trough, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody. Jesus!