Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
BECOMING MORE ASSERTIVE IN YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE
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Special guest and super-therapist Tracey joins Ross to discuss those moments when we don't always know what to say or how to say it. Tangents include: Badgers vs marsupials; death beds; broken tables; gas station give-aways; word punching and poop bags.
Notes:
- Ross says he was in a play called "Scrooge" when he meant "A Christmas Carol".
- https://drdansiegel.com/
- https://www.verywellmind.com/john-bowlby-biography-1907-1990-2795514
- https://www.thepactinstitute.com/
- https://www.amazon.com/Codependent-No-More-Controlling-Yourself/dp/0894864025
- https://www.amazon.com/Responsible-Assertive-Behavior-Behavioral-Procedures/dp/B00ZT11PQS
- How to contact Tracey: http://www.TraceyBiebel.com
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
Well, one day I came home from school and m uh he didn't come running.
SPEAKER_03Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_00And my I was like, where's Pepper? And my mom said, Oh, I decided to give him away to a man at the gas station who had a farm.
SPEAKER_03Shut up, mom. Right. Shut up right now.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's not supposed to happen.
SPEAKER_03Wanna word punch your deceased mother right now? Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder, what? And why? I'm Ross, your host, and today my guest is a very interesting and engaging human, and someone I like, respect, and admire. It's Tracy. Hello, Tracy.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Ross. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm really, really excited that you're here. And welcome to all of you for listening. Um, we just set up our Patreon account so we can stay commercial free. So check that out. And if you can uh support us, that would be great. I don't like commercials, do you, Tracy?
SPEAKER_01No. I don't like them. Not at all.
SPEAKER_03So we're gonna try to avoid that. Okay. So most of us uh humans have experienced situations in which other humans are rude or treat us unfairly or thoughtlessly, and in the moment we either don't respond well or we don't say anything, and then feel like a poop bag about it. We feel like we blew something, and then later on we replay it in our head, and we think of the perfect thing to say. Oh, I should have said this, and that would have been great. Why didn't I say that? So sometimes these experiences are really irritating, they're infuriating. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that murder is not always the best option. Would you agree with that, Tracy?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Generally, murder, not as much. That seems extreme.
SPEAKER_03It seems it does seem extreme. That's a good word for it. And right now there seems to be a lot more tension around with COVID floating around and whatever variant we're on right now. The Burger King variant. I don't know what variant we're on, but we're on variants, and then we have uh social justice issues and everything else, and people just seem to be like walking stress bombs right now.
SPEAKER_00Oh, y uh yes. I think we're all walking stress bombs, especially the last year and a half. And we were before that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And maybe we always have been. I know I've at the grocery store is particularly activating for me. And if I'm waiting in a line and people are having a conversation, I start imagining what it would be like to shrink wrap them.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_03And that isn't good. But we've got good news because among her many talents, Tracy is a trained clinical social worker. And um she's here to help us think about more effective ways to communicate. So before we jump into the deep gumbo of this topic, I am curious about how you became a so a clinical social worker.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So here's the thing. So what it translates to is a therapist, right? So I work with individuals, couples, families, all kinds of stuff. And um most of us, well, I'm gonna speak for myself, but I I find lots of us in the field came from interesting families. So my interest in understanding families and people and how we all work is because I, as a kid, was trying to figure out why my family worked the way it worked.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is fascinating.
SPEAKER_00In undergrad, I took a class that started at noon that I heard was easy. And it was child and family development. And I took the class and I was fascinated. I was like, oh my God, they know my family. How do people know these things?
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell So your criteria for college classes were uh has to start at noon or later. Yes. And easy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay. I just wanted to just check that. Yep. So let's back up a little bit. So I get that I get I get that flow, that's a great path. But so what was it like in your house that was so interesting and stimulating?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I'm an only child. Oh. And uh my mom uh um both my parents are deceased at this point. Okay. Um and so they won't hear any of these things I'm gonna say. But my mom it has a had a personality disorder. She was really narcissistic. Okay. And so everything was about her. And so my job as a kid was to manage her emotions. Um and my dad was just not really present. So he'd go to work every day and he'd come home and he'd put ben gay on his forehead and take a nap because he had a headache. And then we'd have dinner and he would talk about he how he disliked his work, and I would argue with him at dinner so that my parents wouldn't argue. I'd argue with my dad. And then uh that was that was just a fun, fun family.
SPEAKER_03That was sort of a daily thing at your place.
SPEAKER_00That was kind of the way that worked. And I had one of those families that looked good on the outside.
SPEAKER_03Oh I always wanted to have a family. My family didn't look good on the outside, or the or really the inside, but yeah, but I always um I I would watch TV shows which would have ideal families all the time. Oh, yeah. Back in the day, before it became cool to show people with dysfunctions. And and I would just like, oh, I just wish we could be like this. And I'd go to friends' houses and their parents would seem cool and their houses would be like totally like everything was calm and neat. And I thought, oh, I just wish I could be, my family could be like this. Now later on, I met some of those people later in life and found out that their families were also wigged out, the wazoo. Like they were but at the time as a kid it felt like, oh, I just want to have something normal. So did you, as a kid, how did that feel to be carrying that load of of your parents and being sort of um you're I guess you're s you're sort of being a mini kid therapist in your own family?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I I think, you know, how did it feel? Super anxious, right? I was a super anxious kid. But again, I was one of those families that everything looked good on the outside.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But on the inside, it didn't feel good. And the job and the message was make it look good on the outside. So you know, dress a certain way, look a certain way, get good grades, play sports, like do all the things.
SPEAKER_03A lot of pressure.
SPEAKER_00A lot of pressure. But the inside didn't look so good. Um and I think, you know, as a therapist, what I say all the time is uh I think most families are messier on the inside than they are on the outside.
SPEAKER_03I think that sounds right.
SPEAKER_00So you know, in the big picture of things, my family was messy, and I lived in a really great place. I had a great education. We had dinner on the table at six every night. Like life was consistent and predictable.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But not emotionally.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell Right. And that can end up mattering the most, right?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell It does. And it relates to, I think, some of what we were talking about today is you know learning to have your own voice and knowing that it is valuable and important and worthwhile. And I would say as an adult, I still work to do that. I mean, most of us do.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah. So let's I'm going to throw at a definition of assertiveness at you and see if this loosely fits your own understanding. So I am defining it as the ability to express thoughts and feelings honestly without degrading or humiliating the person you're talking to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Is that can we work with that?
SPEAKER_00I love that definition.
SPEAKER_03So um so let's say here's a scenario, and then I'll give you a uh some various uh uh choices along the assertiveness or communication continuum, which is something I just made up. Um so let's say go down to a restaurant and you order a Coke and the server brings a diet sprite. And so on the very non-assertive side of the continuum, you could just say thank you and not say anything and just quietly be unhappy. Or you can just say nothing. Uh either way, no risk, no reward. On the other end of the continuum, you could say something like, Hey, are you stupid? I said coke, coke, do I have to draw you a flipping picture, you cabbage brain. So you make your point, your feelings are expressed, and you're they're probably your honest feelings in the moment, but you've totally insulted and degraded the other person. So that would not be considered assertive, that would be considered aggressive.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um and then in the middle, we have something that we're calling assertive, where you might say something like, excuse me, I ordered a coke. Could you please bring me a coke? Um and that seems so simple, right? Right. But a lot of times I find that I don't even do that, depending on what the situation is. I'm going to add one more along the continuum because it's one that I would see a lot in in my life. Um, and that is um something that's more on the passive aggressive side, where you might say something sarcastic, like you get the you get the wrong drink and you go, well, it's not a coke, but whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh, you know, so it's a sarcastic, kind of like, uh I didn't get what I want, but I'm not, you know. And then the person says, Oh, oh, did you want a Coke? Yeah, kinda, but you know, it's okay, I'll just drink this. No, no, no, I'll drink this, and then they're just unhappy.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03So that's an example of what we're talking about. We're talking about saying what you feel, saying it honestly, but not doing it in a way that hurts somebody else. Right. Um, and I find that when the stakes are high, I'm less likely to be assertive.
SPEAKER_00Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_03So new job first day on a new job. Yep. And something weird is said or happens, and I'll be like, okay, I don't like this.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03But I just need to see how this plays out.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03So or you're in a cab, a cab. I've had so many weird experiences in cabs.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_03Where um the cab driver says something that I don't agree with or that I think is offensive. And I make this, I do this calculus of like, well, I don't know. Is it really worth it to get into like a thing with a person that I'm never gonna see again? And our whole relationship will consist of a 20-minute ride to the airport.
SPEAKER_00Right. I think what you some of what you were just describing is um where you fall in the power hierarchy in the relationship you're in.
SPEAKER_03Okay, let's talk about that.
SPEAKER_00So I think, you know, uh at the at a restaurant, there's also there's a clear uh there are clear guidelines. There are rules. Like if you order a Coke, the expectation is that someone's gonna bring you a Coke. So if they didn't, then it makes sense in the like expectations that you could speak up and that it would be reasonable to do so.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00So the power differential there i is um you don't there's the stakes aren't very high, right? Okay. In a new job, if your first day on the job, someone else has a lot more power than you do in that.
SPEAKER_04Right, of course.
SPEAKER_00And so you're more cautious to speak up because the consequences could be bigger.
SPEAKER_03You don't want to mess up on your first day.
SPEAKER_00You don't want to be that guy. Right. Right? And like I don't want to be that person. Yeah, yeah. Right? The first day. I don't want to be the difficult one.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. And then in a cab or an Uber or a Lyft or something, there's a big power differential because they're in charge of what's happening to you.
SPEAKER_03Right. Because they you've got to get somewhere and you want to get there on time and you don't want to be murdered. You know, back to murder.
SPEAKER_00If we're gonna bring it back to that.
SPEAKER_03Please always bring us back to that.
SPEAKER_00I think if we could just keep swinging it back to murder, it everything would make sense. But you you you don't want that. I mean, I think I've been in those situations where you're like, oh, this could be dangerous for me if it goes badly. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03Right. It could be there could be bad consequences. I can't afford to not have this job. I can't afford to um, you know, uh make this person uh upset. And I think I think everyone does go through these algorithms in their head every time. I wrote down a few other potential reasons. One is you're just it's this laziness. Yes. It's like I just don't care.
SPEAKER_00It's not I don't care enough.
SPEAKER_03Um sometimes we just make choices like, oh, I just don't want to spend any emotional calories on this problem.
SPEAKER_00It's not worth it.
SPEAKER_03This person in line is a jerk, but I just I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be the one today to police this. I'm not gonna be the one today that takes the risk and says what I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh here's one that I think um has applied to me, and I'll explain why. But um sometimes you don't speak effectively because you're super mad.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So you say aggressive things. So you're saying things, but it's not good.
SPEAKER_00Oh no. No. Your logical brain is not online. Your emotional brain is running the show.
SPEAKER_03If I'm left alone in the wild, I have two modes. One is accommodating mode.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_03And the other is kill mode. I don't have a middle mode. When I'm in the wild, left alone in the woods, it's me, it's a deer, there's a badger involved, raccoon. What other is a badger a marsupial? What's a marsupial? What's a kangaroo? Oh, koala bear. Yeah. So there's a koala bear. I don't know what where this would be. And often I find it very easy to go to kill mode because I grew up in that sort of household. And I was born in New York and I lived on the East Coast. Everybody out there is kind of automatically in kill mode.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So when I'm angry, it's not that I swallow my feelings, it's that my feelings come out in a negative way. So I will often, when the first time something weird happens, my first reaction is often, okay, so you're doing something unpleasant, but let's just see if we can make this work somehow. Can we smooth this over? That's my mother. But as soon as that doesn't work, then I go right to kill mode, which is okay. And so a lot of times that looks to an outsider is very unusual gear shifting. It's like, don't you have any middle gears?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know what's interesting on that is that when we look at our fight or flight response, we have fight, flight, freeze, and fawn.
SPEAKER_03Wait, what's fight, flight, freeze?
SPEAKER_00Freeze and fawn.
SPEAKER_03Fawn, F-A-W-N. So you're you're okay, tell me about finding the same thing. So that's fawn.
SPEAKER_00That's your accommodate mode.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell Fawn.
SPEAKER_00So when a when a threat comes to you, you are like, ooh, let's calm this down.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_00But then when that doesn't work, you go into fight mode. But it's the same um it's the same mechanism in our bodies and brains.
SPEAKER_03Right. I don't ever I almost never do flight or freeze. It's always an action, but the fawn mode, I like that. And I also think that's where as part of the reason I developed a sense of humor, which is a way to diffuse stressful situations, especially in my family. I was the comedian and would try to bring humor to otherwise unpleasant situations. So anger is another one. Fear, people are just afraid of the consequences, and sometimes there's good reason. Right. And I'm going to come back to that. And then I also noticed that in some of the reading I was doing on this topic, that people who are depressed don't always speak up for themselves. So they're suffering from depression of some kind. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Well, and just the energy.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Yes. It takes energy to be assertive.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03But it starts when we are kids. We teach at least kids, I don't know if kids are being taught any differently now, but we teach kids to be nice, be humble, help people, be supportive. So you we train kids to not be assertive. We do. Are we still doing that?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell I think we are still doing that. I think so, you know, we're we're there are some differences, but I think people are uncomfortable with discomfort.
SPEAKER_03Okay. People are uncomfortable. Yes, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Right. So we don't want to make other people uncomfortable, or we don't want to make ourselves uncomfortable. And even when we speak up, often what we're trying to do is make ourselves less uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And assertiveness requires that we look at our own discomfort, calm it down, and then look at the person in front of us and try and speak in a way that doesn't make them uncomfortable or or or or um mod moderates their discomfort enough so that they can hear what we're saying. We don't want to um like fire them up so they can't hear us.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00Because then we don't get heard, and assertiveness is wanting to be heard.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00So it assertiveness takes a lot of practice and a lot of energy to do it well because you have to sit in empathy. And in order to sit in empathy, you have to be able to have a calm brain. You have to be able to be in that spot where you're you know, there's the idea. You know, um I don't know if you if you know who Dan Siegel is. He's an interpersonal neurobiologist in California. He's one of my favorite.
SPEAKER_03Oh, everybody knows who he is, Tracy. What do you take me for? Just uh dope?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, I don't know who he is.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell He's fabulous. He's written a ton of books. I've read everything he's written and I've seen him speak a few times. But he talks a lot about the idea of the mind and the brain. And the brain is I'm this is not the way he talks about it, this is the way I've interpreted it, but he talks about the brain. So I talk about the brain being like the dumb computer who just runs the stuff. Yeah. And then the mind is the filter. So the mind is a thing when we when we hit that fight, flight, freeze, fawn idea, and it just gets lost in our dumb brain, that just the computer. Then our mind comes in and says, Oh, something happened. Let me filter that for you, and let me use my emotional regulation and my emotional intelligence and my logical brain to use logic informed by emotion instead of all emotion-driven.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell, I think you're putting your finger on it. I don't have a mind. Oh, I just have a brain.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I think I know you well enough to know that you you have a mind. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03Well, I appreciate your confidence in me, which is another factor that influences whether someone's assertive or not, is a feeling of self-confidence. And it's sort of a chicken and egg thing because you can be a confident person for other reasons, and therefore it's easier for you to be assertive because you have self-confidence. Or you can have low self-confidence, but by practicing assertiveness and assertive communication, your uh level of self-confidence and self-esteem can increase, right? So it's not necessarily you have to be born a confident person and feel great about yourself to be able to do this. It makes it easier. But it's not you can learn, right? You can learn to do this.
SPEAKER_00I think so. I I think um it's really interesting to think of all of this, right, in terms of kind of attachment style.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, okay. Tell me what attachment style is.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell So um we all have so uh a lot of people think of attachment as being the thing kids have or don't have to their parents.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00But the reality is um John Bowby is the attack the father of attachment theory, and then all these other people have pulled off of it, right? But what he initially talked about was like children's attachment to their parents. And what attachment is is it develops from like actually prenatally up through about age three, and it's the idea of whether we feel like the world is a safe and predictable place and that we are a lovable person within it, and that we are worthwhile having a relationship and having our voice heard. So the first time we learn to be assertive and that our verse voice is worthwhile is when we are a teeny tiny baby saying, I'm hungry, I'm wet, I'm tired, help me. And the more a parent or caregiver addresses those needs in a really healthy and attuned way, then that child learns my voice is important and I'm allowed to be assertive and speak up for my needs. So we learn that up through age three, that's the foundation of that. And then it gets reinforced for the rest of our lives. Ah and so if we have a secure attachment, it means that we believe that our voice is important. And we believe that other people will hear us if we speak up. Because we learned that as a child and then it was reinforced.
SPEAKER_03I got you.
SPEAKER_00So if we can either um I'm throwing all these names out, but I I love all these people I read and learn from. So there's a guy named Stan Tatken, T-A-T-K-I-N.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And he does a lot of work with couples and people in um and he talks about it being a securely functioning relationship.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00And he talks about people either being um An anchor, which is a securely attached person that feels like things are going well, or an island or a wave. An island tends to be more independent and distances and a wave tends to be a little bit more anxious and um and and uh and and chasing. Lots of people have talked about this. But the idea is that when we get activated, um we we move towards our our um insecure spot.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00So if we're a more securely functioning person, which is some skills we can learn and understand ourselves better, then we believe that our voice is worthwhile.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And that's kind of what you're describing around self-confidence.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00Right. So it's I think of it as less of self-confidence and more of whether you are able to be grounded and secure and believe that your voice is important enough to be heard.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00Which then makes it easier to say it in an assertive way versus an aggressive or a passive aggressive way, because you already believe that you're worth hearing.
SPEAKER_03Right. And you know, the problem with being aggressive that I've learned firsthand is that um while you might win the moment, it doesn't really feel great to behave that way, and it doesn't feel great to hurt somebody else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it doesn't bring what you wanted back, because a lot of times when we're speaking up like that, we're what we're wanting back is validation.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00And to be heard and loved and seen. And all we've really done is like punch the other person with our words and shoved them away. Word punches.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, word punches. That's a good one. I I I sometimes will word punch people, and I don't want to. Don't we all say it doesn't feel good to word punch. I like saying word punch though. I like it a lot. Um so here so here's an example. So um so when I was about 12, I was in my first play, and it the play was Scrooge, and uh I was Scrooge. Oh and um it was uh the first night we performed it, we had a there was a full house, and when I came out for my first ever real life bow, I've got a huge amount of applause, and it was so exciting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03My mother was driving me home, and I am just flying. I am so um pumped about the whole experience and how it went, and it just felt really good at a personal level. But I was also proud of the work that we'd all done. And we pull into the driveway, and everything the drive home was great. And then my mother says, When we go in the house, you're gonna notice that the kitchen table is broken in half. Oh, and I'm like, starting to be like, wait a minute, this is intruding on my magic time. Like, what are you telling me right now? I'm having my magic time.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And she goes, Your father broke the kitchen table. I just want you to know before you walk in, because I don't want you to say anything. Oh which was always her approach. And um, and she was a very nice person, but that was her approach to my dad. And so I walk in, and we had nine people in my family. So the kitchen table was like a huge, like one of those conference tables you see in a movie. This is really long. And so I go in and I look because I gotta see the train wreck, right? I gotta rubberneck it. So I look, and not only is the table, in fact, broken in half.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_03But all of the dishes from dinner, because I wasn't there for any of this because I was, you know, getting ready for my play, all the dishes and the food was had been left just all crash into the middle.
SPEAKER_05Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_03And it was so and so in that moment, I went from one of the high points of my entire life to one of the low points, and the feeling was, why can't I just have this moment?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But in a in a healthy family, like in my in the family I made, if I had done something like that, my kids, because of how they were raised, they would have said, What's with the busted table? Right. Like, why did you do that? Right. Like that's weird.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's scary. Don't do that. We were constantly encouraged not to not to do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So that's that's just an example of the training we got. And that produces um kids who aren't gonna have that middle mode.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_03And everybody in my family is what they say, what are the choices? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn, or badger? Fawn. Yeah. Fawn. So we're all fight.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We go right to fight mode.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um and um that's that or there or or we don't, or we don't do anything.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's funny, I do the same thing. Like the how I was raised, I either I'm either an over over-accommodator or I uh speak up d too aggressively. Yeah. Like I I I work to have that middle place, but it's a constant practice.
SPEAKER_03You go New Jersey on people.
SPEAKER_00I do go New Jersey on people. And it's funny, I either go Georgia or New Jersey.
SPEAKER_03What's Georgia?
SPEAKER_00It's the overaccommodator.
SPEAKER_03Bless their heart.
SPEAKER_00Right. Except I I'm I'm sure I have my moments of being passive aggressive, but that's less my thing. Like I tend to be more because Georgia, like the Southern thing could be more passive aggressive. Like my mom can be, yeah. My mom, very passive aggressive, or just flat out aggressive, but um much more passive about it and narcissistic. But the but I do that too, right? I'm either very accommodating and very thoughtful, and I've worked to learn how to not go New Jersey on people. I used like this is the softer version of me, right? I've lived on the West Coast now for 20-something years.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that'll do it.
SPEAKER_00It does. And I've um and I've worked to have a softer edge, but still I have um more of an edge than most West Coasters.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell So, like in New Jersey, if you're standing online and somebody is talking, like there's a long line of people and somebody's talking to the checker, and like they're already checked out, but they're still talking about their day, you can say, hey, cut the cord, it's over.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like this, your time is over. Look at all of us. Right, move on. And nobody is offended.
SPEAKER_00Oh, in fact, everyone's like, yeah, yeah, right, got it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. But here, if you say something like that, people will look at you like, I got in trouble. So I'm going out a door in the building that I live in, and there's a person kind of waiting, and they and so it was one of these social interactions where who goes me? So I go, but I say, excuse me. You know, like I you know, like, thanks. It was like my way of saying, hey, I get it, you waited for me, so excuse me. Right. And somebody from here says, Why were you so rude to that person? I'm like, what are you talking about? It's a excuse me. That's polite. That's good. You go, no, you don't say excuse me. You say something like, Hey there, how are you? Hey, thanks for waiting for me. I hope you have a good what are you doing today? Are you got any plans? I'm like, I don't have to I can't do all of that.
SPEAKER_00And I don't want to.
SPEAKER_03I can see after 20 years, you could actually become kind of a super good person.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's happened for you. I think it's already happened. You're super nice. Um Well, I can't not in an accommodating way. Like I see you as a powerful person.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_03Um that's always been my perception of you. Well, I wanted to talk to you about this other thing that I when I read about assertiveness, which is one of my favorite topics, um, just not only because of my own um interest in working on it, but just because I think it's one of those things that can really change your life. It's it's like there are so many things that we talk about that are really hard to conceptualize and implement in our lives, you know? But being assertive is a kind of a mechanical thing that you can like anybody can do better at it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it can really make a difference in how you feel and how other people feel about you. So that's really that's to me, it's fascinating when you when there's something like that that is, it's not that high, it's not a high-level construct. It's not something where it's very loosey-goosey and you can't really figure out what it is, or it's all gobbledygook, and it's like, how do I make sense of this? So I like it for that reason. But what I don't see a lot of people talking about is if you have been a freezer or a fighter or a fauna.
SPEAKER_05Badger, fauna.
SPEAKER_03A fauna, there was one more, a flighter.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03A fly, a fly, a runaway person. If you've been that person most of your life, and that's your groove, that's your go-to, um, and you start being assertive, there were people in your life who you're assertive with, especially like in your family or your close friends, they will fight against that, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. It's called family systems theory.
SPEAKER_03Yes. So can you just talk a little bit about how that works?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Oh, yeah. Family systems theory is fascinating. There's also internal family systems, which is super cool. But family systems theory is the idea that any system, it doesn't have to be a family, it could be a work environment or any kind of group of people.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So any group.
SPEAKER_00Any group of people that has been together long enough creates certain roles and expectations within it.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_00And they and each person plays a role in that. And the system wants to stay the same. It's like, you know, it it does it it it wants to stay where it is. It's comfortable.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell That's the key. So even though things are not good, it's comfortable. There's a predictability to it. Everybody knows what part they're supposed to play.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. It's like staying in a marriage that kind of sucks.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00But you just keep doing it because the fear of the unknown is more uncomfortable than the fear of the known.
SPEAKER_03Right. There's so many choices we don't make because we don't know what will happen if we stop doing this thing, even though we don't like the thing we're doing.
SPEAKER_00Right. And our our brains like to automate things. So we like to just do the automatic thing.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00And and relationships get automated pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus Oh, okay. That's a good concept. Automatic relationships.
SPEAKER_00And so our brains get really efficient. And when we try and make a change, our brains even fight against us. So even when we individually want to make a change, our brain is like, no, no, no, no, do it the old way. It's more efficient. Even if it's not healthier. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03It works.
SPEAKER_00It works well enough.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus Do the thing that always has worked.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus Well enough. So family systems or other group systems work the same way. So when one person in the system starts making changes, the rest of the system wants to pull them back in and actually punishes them for making those changes.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell Because I'm assuming that if they were to actually to validate those changes, that would require them to all start behaving differently. That's right. Which is they don't want to do that.
SPEAKER_00No, it's too uncomfortable. And their brain and body are fighting against that.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell Right. And I so the feeling I'm trying to relate to is when you come home and you're like totally changed the way you are, or even a little bit, and then everybody's just tries to force you back into your old role. And so you go from maybe the first couple hours of like trying to be you, the new you.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then by the end of the day.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you're back to old you.
SPEAKER_03You're yeah, you're up in your room, you're moody, you're mad at everybody, and you just want to get out of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03And you've totally been, you've maybe already had a couple of arguments and you've lost your temper. And it's like, how do these people have this power over me? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's exactly what happens to every last one of us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like it's just a thing about being a person and a family. And it takes a lot of mindfulness and purposeful choice to be able to be in that. And I think one of the things that we all do, I mean, I I've done it. We all do it. It's part of the deal, is we come back being like, I'm gonna come back with this these new skills and this new person I want to be, and I'm gonna show up and it's gonna be great. Right. And then you get there and it's awful. Right. And then you question yourself, and then you wonder about them.
SPEAKER_03And that feels bad.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it feels terrible.
SPEAKER_03Like, oh, I'm not this person I thought I had.
SPEAKER_00And yet you are. And and the other thing we do is we then want all those people to change.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00So that we can be more comfortable as the new version of us, because we've now decided that's better and the way they are is not as good.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And the thing is it goes a lot better when we can practice knowing that we're we're different, we've made some changes, but they haven't. So if we go back expecting it to be different, we're gonna be very disappointed. But if we go back being like, they're gonna be the same, and I'm just gonna allow them to be that way and not fight against it, then we have a much better time.
SPEAKER_03It doesn't really matter what they do.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't.
SPEAKER_03You can still be this person that you are. You don't have to kill them. You don't because we've established that that's not good.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't work out for anyone. It's messy.
SPEAKER_03And they always suspect the family members first. You're gonna get pulled in for questioning. Um but we also I've heard people, and I know you have too, people say, hey, you know, sometimes you have to like choose your family. Like find people in your life that are willing to accept you as you define yourself right now.
SPEAKER_00I'm one of those people. I I don't have any family that is, you know, actually my blood relatives.
SPEAKER_03None.
SPEAKER_00None. I I mean I have, you know, I'm like Facebook friends with some, but I don't have any that I'm close to.
SPEAKER_05Right, right.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't have any you know, I I made some real changes and I called out things that were happening in my family, and I spoke about things and um, you know, a a lot of things happened there, and I tried really hard for many years to try and have a relationship with my parents and my mom, and um, it just wasn't possible in a healthy way for me. So I had to distance more and more to be able to feel like I could be healthy and have health around me. And that that meant that I had to leave family behind.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And, you know, people have to pick sides in that, and they pick the side that's the most comfortable for them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it wasn't me.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_00And so, you know, I I had to look at that and feel the rejection of that and the sadness of that and the grief of that. Yes. And then look around and realize, oh, well, I I get to choose something different. And so I have really wonderful friends.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh they like me for who I am and see me and value me. And um but it's still painful. Like not having that family, that's that sucks. And I help people do that in my practice all the time. We talk about, you know, uh what's that line of can you still have a healthy relationship with your family, even though they're very different from you and they're making different choices than you are? Are you able to go back and love them for who they are and how they are, knowing that that's exactly who they're gonna be?
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell And can you and and and can you hold your ground, I can't think of a better way to put it, but around your own values and opinions and beliefs, can you can you hold your ground and not feel like you have to give them up just to be around them, right? That's an important part of it. So if somebody if the if the old way was for people, your older siblings, like the that's the practice in the family was to tease you and demean you as a human being, and that's not something you allow to happen in your life anymore.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03You can say, I don't I don't accept that kind of behavior anymore. And if they continue to do it, then you have a choice to you can say, well, if this, you know, if we can't do it, if we can't behave in a way that's going to be uh validating for me that I'm gonna have to go. Right. I can't stay here and do this family dinner or whatever it is. Totally. Right? So you can hold on to that part of you that you have created and worked on. Uh you can say, you can tell people what the issue is, but you don't have to go in with the expectation. If they don't change over and suddenly say, oh, we're sorry, we're gonna be totally different people now, that that's okay. You haven't lost that moment. You've actually protected yourself, you've protected your own sense of self, and you've choose what you do about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Do you stay and continue to accept it for other reasons that are important to you? You know, you're at your parents' deathbed and they're still being annoying, so you say, well, I'm just gonna stay anyway, even though they're annoying. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Right. I in my practice.
SPEAKER_03And by the way, people, if you're listening to this and you're and you're on your deathbed, hey, cheer up. Don't be so annoying. The people on their deathbed, you need to be in good spirit. Don't be annoying.
SPEAKER_00Don't bother the people around you. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03And don't stop asking. Seriously. Can you just get your own medicine? Right. Okay. That's that's not so selfish of them. Trevor Burrus, yeah. Oh, the deathbed people, they're the most self-absorbed. I have never, in all of my deathbed experiences, no deathbed person has ever asked me how I was feeling. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Right. And I just feel like, come on. Is it that hard?
SPEAKER_00It shouldn't be. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Well, we're not here to talk about that. But I'm glad I had to get that off the Trevor Burrus.
SPEAKER_00It was assertive of you to bring that up.
unknownTrevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. Was it assertive or was it aggressive? Or passive aggressive. I think it might have been passive aggressive. That's another I think that is a feature. Well, I do, yes, I have been accused.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, we all get there sometimes. We do.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus But the main thing is don't kill the person in their deathbed. They have enough trouble. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Well, they're going to die, likely.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, if they're on their deathbed. I mean, it's seems kind of like if they don't die, it's a disappointment.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, it takes a long time. It drags it out, you know.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And if you're in a coma, just stay and don't come out of a coma.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Oh, just go. Just pass through. Help the rest of us out.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So people will try in the system that you described, people will try to stop you and keep you in the freakish system. So there's there's a dysfunctional aspect to it, but it's functional because it makes everybody feel comfortable that they know how to be. So they will stop you, but you don't have to give into that. And I just had a few simple ideas that I wanted to see if they're any good. If they're any good or not. And feel free to tell me they're bad. And I promise none of them will have anything to do with what to do about deathbed people because it it's really an individual choice, honestly.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03It's an individual choice. And make sure you what is it called? A living will?
SPEAKER_00What is the thing which tells people when you pull the plug or not?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Make sure you get the right person on that.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you do want that. And you want one on file with your hospital, your doctor, and one with the person who's going to do that for you.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Yeah, but make sure that person is not mad at you. Aaron Powell Well, I mean, in that moment, well, no, I want them not mad when they're deciding whether to yank the plug-up.
SPEAKER_00Well.
SPEAKER_03I want to make sure they're in a good mood.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, you'll want to take care of your relationships along the way, though. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03Send them a present once in a while. Okay, so here are the things. So first of all, I have to use a sports analogy because as we established earlier, no mind. Just a brain. So my brain is saying that one of the things so earlier I said we have tons of these opportunities always being presented to us to be more assertive. And sometimes we feel bad when we don't say something to the cab driver or we don't speak up at work. You know, a boss asks you to do a personal errand, and you're like, oh, this is BS, but I'm just gonna do it. But then you feel bad about it. Why didn't I say something and not, you know, and we punish ourselves a lot. I feel um anyway that I do that. Like I said, gosh, why didn't I say something more constructive? Uh why did I have to lose my temper? Whatever. Um, so my one suggestion, my overarching suggestion is to think of it like a baseball. So in baseball, a good hitter gets a hit three times out of every 10 at best. I mean seven times they screw up, they get out, they don't do well. Um, but they're still considered really good. So I would use the same analogy for assertiveness. Like if you can hit three, two to three times out of every 10 opportunities, and by the way, you get at least four or five everything. Every day, just being in the world. There's going to be tons of opportunities to be assertive on small levels or more significant levels. And if you can do two or three, that's good.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you're going to let some go for the reasons we said. You're not up to it. You don't have the energy. Maybe you're sick that day. Maybe you just don't want to get into it with the gas station people. Right. You know, it's like not worth it. Trevor Burrus And you got it. You just have to let some. It can't be like my father who never let anything go. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00You'll end up with broken tables.
SPEAKER_03The dishes were all crashed. It was like the a scene from the Titanic. I couldn't believe it. Now don't say anything. You're going to see the Titanic hit an iceberg. It would be like telling people on the Titanic, which I think is what they told the people in Steer in third class, right? Like, well, you may notice some water flowing into your room. But don't worry. It's okay. We've got it all under control. Yeah. So uh so yeah, so be grateful if you can do two or three. Right. You know, don't worry. Don't criticize yourself. Don't feel like you're not doing it just because you don't always hit it.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell I encourage people to just get a solid B average in life.
SPEAKER_03Okay. That would have been good. I wish I had that would have been great advice for me as a kid.
SPEAKER_00Just across the board.
SPEAKER_03In my family, no one got F's. No one, no one got bad grades. I was the first kid to not do well in school.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell But I'll bet they got bad grades in other parts of life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's right. They suck at so many things. They suck at so many things that I'm good at it. Dang, I feel better. Good. So then this other idea which I've I wanted because this is actual advice. This is real advice I've given real people in my life. And I want to know if it's good advice. And if it isn't, then I'll stop giving it. But a lot of times people will say to me, I was in this situation and they they they lay it out, you know, this was happening, you know, my friend uh was supposed to go traveling with me, and then the night before they just called me up and said they're bailing, and now I'm stuck with like and they won't pay for their tick or whatever. Yeah. It's like I do know what to say. And I just the moment passed. And I say, if you can't think of what to say in a situation, like you're totally like you're either too it's too emotional or you're just too confused, but you know it's wrong, and you know you don't like it, you can always say no, even if it doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_03So if someone says, you're just so selfish and you don't care about anyone, and you're like flummoxed, but you can still say no and then just wait. Because if you say no, if you can't think of anything else to say except you know it's you you reject it, if you just say no, the other person is interrupted from their flow, and they're most likely gonna say, What do you mean, no? Like what no?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What do you mean no? And then you can then think about what is it that you want to say. It gives you a moment to stop the flow.
SPEAKER_00I like the stopping the flow. Here's what I tell people.
SPEAKER_03Okay, this is what I'm hoping. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What I tell people is to when those things happen, try and find your curiosity.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So let's talk how that would work. Yeah. So in that moment, when someone is saying something and you're feeling that just like, ah, instead of You're a selfish jerk and you never think about what I need, and you're just like, that's not even close to true. How do I find my curiosity?
SPEAKER_00I would say, uh huh. So you're saying that I'm a selfish jerk.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's what I said.
SPEAKER_00I heard you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It stops it.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think what I like about what I liked about is that you slowed your the pace. Because a lot of times these things are happening. One of the reasons we don't always act.
SPEAKER_00Because they're fast.
SPEAKER_03Because it's going so fast and it's flying by us. And so I like that you slowed way down. And um what about saying something like, okay, so you're saying that, I'm gonna need to think about that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03And then I'll I'll talk to you about it later.
SPEAKER_00Let me or another one is like, yeah, I I think I need to pause this. I just need to pause.
SPEAKER_03That's a surprising thing to hear you say about something like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm surprised by this information. I need time to think about it.
SPEAKER_00One of the things I always think is if someone is coming at us like that, then what we're seeing is their pain.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Right. So if we can be like, oh, they're in pain. Me too. No one's gonna get anywhere if we're both in pain. I probably need to slow down.
SPEAKER_03Right. I think that's a really good one. I think it's good to know that when people are treating you badly, it's often because they're in pain. Right. And that is something that I was never taught. Right. What I was taught directly or indirectly is if someone's treating you badly, it's because they're bad.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03And they're have malice. Yes. And you need to smash them.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03As opposed to recognizing that, oh, they're this is the best they can do and it's not good. Right. They're really struggling. Right. And to and having that empathy for that situation and reframing that way automatically starts giving you lots of power, right?
SPEAKER_00It does. And the the hard thing in those moments is because I know I've been in them, I see the other person in pain, and I'm also in pain, so I can feel myself wanting to fight back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Word punch.
SPEAKER_00I totally want a word punch. I totally want a word punch. And what in at my best, I can slow down and stop and say, nothing I'm gonna do right now is gonna make this better.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00So let me stop until we can both get to a place where at least I can get to a place where I am not speaking from a place of pain. Because nothing good is gonna happen if I'm speaking from a place of pain.
SPEAKER_03That's super powerful, super cool. I once said something like that to uh a partner, and it made him really mad when I said, I didn't say it like that, but I said, I I really need time to process this. Yeah. It's upsetting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And they were like, what do you mean you need time? And but the thing about that position is you can just stay there. Yes. It's a safe base to be on. Because he's like, well, I just need time. And that they cannot like it. Right. But it doesn't, it interrupts that flow and it stops the of some of the toxicity of the moment. It does. Okay, I've got another idea. So that one I like. I like the way you I like the way you do that. And I think that's a good one. And it's to slow it down, to stop the energy, to pause. Uh if you can't think of what you want to say. Right. Because sometimes you can, but sometimes you're when it's really emotional and the stakes are high, I feel like that's when I'm at my worst in terms of. Yeah, I'm like, wow. Especially when I'm surprised.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm like, whoa, that's look at that table. It's broken in half.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um I'm still surprised about it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03There was like meat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like nobody cleaned it up.
SPEAKER_00No, everyone scattered.
SPEAKER_03It's like we need this evidence for like a crime scene. It was a crime scene. I'm supposed to surprise there weren't chalk outlines of the other kids. Where were the other kids? I don't know. I don't remember. Okay.
SPEAKER_00I wonder what they remember.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah. Because they were the ones that were there at the table. It must have been amazing.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Um Yeah. So what am I complaining about? Oh, I didn't even have to see it. No, I understand what you're trying to say. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00You don't have to weigh your pain against theirs.
SPEAKER_03We're having some pain weighing going on. Let's weigh our pain. That's one of our favorite family activities, by the way, is painweigh-ins.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Yeah. In this corner at 350 pain pounds.
SPEAKER_03So here's another idea. This is one that I not only preached, but also practiced with success.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, go on.
SPEAKER_03So you're in a situation, it's going badly, you don't know what to do, you don't know what to say, you know, or you're uncomfortable, and it passes and it's over.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And sometimes if it's an incidental thing on a street corner in a cab and you're never going to see that person again, there's nothing you can do about it. It it passed by. Right. So that's going to happen. But sometimes it's a ri it's a situation that you're going to be in again with the same people, like a family or a boss, or coworker, or partner, whatever. So I call it the long comebacker.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_03So my philosophy is just because you didn't say it in the moment doesn't mean you can never say it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_03So I once was, this is just a one simple example of this happened. So I had a client paying my bills, and they were on a it was a conference call, and this was years ago. It doesn't, it's not an excuse, it's just the reality. It was not in the current moment. Um but they used the N-word. All the people on the phone were white.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And nobody said anything, including me. There was just like the word was used, and there was you could hear like every you could almost hear everyone's mind brain going, uh-oh, now what do we do? And nobody did anything. That was on a Friday. This bothered me all weekend. Yep. It really bothered me. It's like I didn't say anything. And I was doing that whole thing where I was beating myself up. And what did I call it before? You go to the poop box. The poop, what did I call it? Let me look in my notes here.
SPEAKER_05I called it You had a good phrase.
SPEAKER_03The poop time. You go to poop poop land. Wait a minute. You go to something with a poop. Poop bag.
SPEAKER_00There we go.
SPEAKER_03It was a poop bag. So I was in the poop bag Saturday, all day Sunday, and then I decided I'm going to call him back. I'm going to do the long come back. So I call him back, the guy who used the slur, and I said, Hey, how's it going? Hey, this happened. I felt really upset about it, and I really don't want to hear those words used. And I didn't know what was going to happen. I figured I might get fired, but it was okay. It's like I had to do something. And what happened was he felt extremely embarrassed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And he was grateful that I brought it up. And not only did that happen that time, and then of course I felt much better. Even though I didn't, I wasn't a hero in the moment, I was able to do the long comebacker and say what I needed to say and see what happens. But I found that that usually goes very well. Yeah. Even because he had the power in that situation. I had no power. He was, he could decide whether I worked or didn't work, or whether I got paid or didn't get paid. But I found that in repeating that situation in most occasions, it goes positively.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03If it's done assertively, saying, this is how I felt. I felt very uncomfortable. This is what I need. I need you to not do that. And um and then see what they say. And most of the time, people are like, oh yeah, I appreciate you. They they find a way to say, yeah, that's not great behavior on my part.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I wasn't saying he was a bad person. I wasn't saying anything about why he used the word or whether he was a racist or not. It was all just, I can't do this. Right. And uh so I tell people it's like, don't feel like you can never re uh address.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. Go back and revisit.
SPEAKER_03Revisit in a positive way. Yes. Again, you're taking a risk. It could go badly. But even if it goes badly, don't you end up feeling better anyway that you've said what you needed to say? That you expressed your feelings.
SPEAKER_00I think so usually. I mean, I I I I like that one a lot. I, you know, I do it myself. I encourage other people to do it. I mean, I, you know, there's so many times. And I I think one of the reasons that works is that, you know, in that moment, everyone was feeling it. It was emotionally charged, there was a lot going on. And so even in in that moment, if you'd said something, he may have been a lot more defensive than he was one-on-one.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And so you actually gave him the opportunity to repair with you, to own his, you know, his mistake or error, or to think about how he uses language going forward. I mean, you gave him an opportunity to reflect and grow.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And um what a respectful uh uh uh opportunity, you know, you created there. Uh and I think we can do that more and more. And we get scared about it, but it also gives us a chance to really reflect on how we felt about it, communicate it in a different way, and use our mind, not our brain, in that moment to do that.
SPEAKER_03You're a duelist, aren't you? You're a mind is separate from the body. You're you're I try. You're who is a philosopher that was a a duelist? Was Descartes?
SPEAKER_00Oh, man. There's a mind and a body, or was he just uh you were deep in a philosophy hole I don't know much about.
SPEAKER_03So does that mean the mind was separate or the same? I don't know. I wish I remembered that stuff. Not really. Um so uh I had a really long comebacker with my dad. I actually ended up having a um a really good relationship with my father later in life. He lived a long time, so it provided that opportunity for us to go over a lot of things. But I did an 18-year comebacker with him. And it was it didn't, I wouldn't say it went in a storybook way, in that he didn't, it didn't result in him going, Oh, I'm really sorry I behaved that way. And yeah, that was a tough time in my life, and I regret that it hurt you. It that would have been the storybook. What he said instead was just very sort of self-centered. Like he acknowledged that it happened and then kind of described like what it was like for him and didn't really uh express any concern about what it was like for me. But the weird thing about that exchange is I got to tell him what was upsetting about his behavior 18 years previously when I was a kid. Because I was already like 30 years old at that point. So it was a really long comebacker. Um and so I felt better just having said it to him. But the other thing was weird that I did not expect, and it I don't know what you think of this, but I realized listening to him sort of describe it from his point of view and not really is I realized, you know what, this wasn't personal.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03He was just doing him.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And yeah, it would would have been great if he was a more thoughtful person back then. But he wasn't.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_03But it wasn't like he was trying to hurt me.
SPEAKER_01Right. That makes a big difference.
SPEAKER_03It was like uh it was like I've actually walked away from that exchange with him, even though it wasn't a storybook movie ending. It was felt feeling really good about it.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Well, you know what's interesting about that? So traumatic memory is really interesting. Right. So that was a traumatic moment. And we can talk about big T trauma versus little T trauma, you know, whatever that is. But all these little things are traumatic memories. And the way memory works, or the way I've conceptualized it, I'm very visual, is that we have these bookshelves or file cabinets in our head. They're all organized, right? And when things happen, we put our memories up there and they're all organized. And then there's this big pile of disorganized ones that aren't filed or put on the bookshelf anywhere on the floor. Those are our traumatic memories.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00And our brain holds onto them and remembers them more. One, because we do risk assessments all the time and so we're always looking for the negative stuff. But two, because the traumatic memories are disorganized. And so what you did with that traumatic memory is you organized it, you made sense of it.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00And so when you when you shared it with him, even though you didn't get a storybook response from him, what you got from him was something that allowed you to pick that memory up off the floor and put it in a in a bookshelf that was like, oh, unfortunate things that happened, but now I can make sense of on the right.
SPEAKER_03Right. And now I'm not carrying it anymore. It's not on the floor. Right. It's not a mess for me. Right. It's like that's just where that goes. Because that's how it feels. It's like I was able to let go of the emotional content of it for me. It was like, oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I had this EMDR is a a way of treating trauma.
unknownTrevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03Is that when you eat a pretzel and really close to a microphone?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell You could do that.
SPEAKER_03Or is that something else? AS something to do. ASMR?
SPEAKER_00ASMR. Right, that is. Yes. ASMR? I think that's right.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But what are they eating? Like what's a good like it's supposed to be crunchy or not? Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I don't even know.
SPEAKER_00My daughter loves that. She finds it so calming.
SPEAKER_03Is it like um could you get if you had like an apple? Oh, that crunch. A crunching apple. Is that what you're talking about? Or are you talking about something else? Okay, so we should not talk about that.
SPEAKER_00It's an eye movement way of addressing trauma. It's a very scripted way. It's EMDR. But I had this traumatic memory from being a kid. Right. My mom had um we had moved from Georgia to New Jersey, and my mom's traumatic. It was traumatic. I was in third grade. My mom really didn't like it there. And I had gotten a puppy, like a black lab mix puppy before we'd gone. I don't remember how old his name was Pepper. I don't remember how old he was when we moved, maybe a year, right? So he was pretty rambunctious, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he was pretty big. And that was, you know, I'm sure he was a handful. But he was my buddy.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And when I come home from school, he'd come running to me, and that felt really good. Well, one day I came home from school and he didn't come running.
SPEAKER_02Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_00And my I was like, where's Pepper? And my mom said, Oh, I decided to give him away to a man at the gas station who had a farm.
SPEAKER_03Uh mom. Right. Shut up right now.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's not supposed to happen.
SPEAKER_03You want to word punch your deceased mother right now?
SPEAKER_00Right, right? How awful is that?
SPEAKER_03That's the worst thing.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_03I have I gave your dog away I gave pepper away to a man at a gas station.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_03So how did that feel like that?
SPEAKER_00So this is my mom. Anyway, I've processed this in therapy many, many times. Yeah. But then I finally was in EMDR addressing some traumatic memories, and I was like, oh, I want to address that one because it is like it was visceral. Like I could I could see it, I could feel it, I could smell the air. It could be like so colorful. It's awful. But EMDR was super cool in that I did this scripted thing and you go through it, and as I'm going through EMDR, the um it was like an old Polaroid picture, and the color drained out of it. Oh and somehow in that experience, I was able to pick that experience up off the floor and put it on my bookshelf.
SPEAKER_05Wow. Right? Amazing.
SPEAKER_00That it doesn't carry that same bite, that same emotional bite. It's still awful. That's not something that should have ever happened to a kid. Right? That's terrible.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00And I can put it on the bookshelf of like things my super self-absorbed mom did.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah, I understand that. Yeah, but wow. Right. It's amazing that you're able to do that, though.
SPEAKER_00Isn't it cool that we can do that? That we can take those memories and we can learn to have a voice in it. We can share it with someone and we can organize it in a way that helps us heal, even if we can't get the kind of storybook closure we want from the person who injured us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's really cool. That is awesome. You know, we get lots of opportunities to practice, being more assertive. And if you make a few mistakes, it's not something you need to beat yourself up about. If it's really significant and the person's in your life, then you can address it with them. It doesn't have to be in the moment. And sometimes, as you said, it's even better when it's not in the moment. And um you know, just try to try to be a better version of yourself every day.
SPEAKER_01Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Part of being a better version of yourself is being mindful of how you are in the world and how you're presenting and how you're navigating these stressful situations.
SPEAKER_00So throw one last name out as we're doing this. But Melanie Beattie wrote a book a long time ago called Codependent No More. And right?
SPEAKER_03I read that book.
SPEAKER_00And it's a classic. And there's a um one of my favorite sound bites from that book is you cannot simultaneously hold healthy boundaries for yourself and take care of someone else's feelings.
SPEAKER_03Right. My and I've gotten so much better at this, but my temptation is just to say, hey.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. You know, East Coast him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Or word punch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, word punch him.
SPEAKER_03Word punch him right where it counts in the poop bag. Right. This has been a fascinating discussion. Uh, hopefully uh it's unusual for this podcast for there to be anything useful, but you provided a ton of useful information, and we'll um put those references to those people and their work in the show notes. So if you're interested, you can follow up. Um so uh Tracy, excellent job.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_03I'm so glad you were willing to do this.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And um you are a uh not only a powerful person, but you're smart as hell.
SPEAKER_00I thank you. I'm glad it came across that way, Director.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. Well, I always knew you were dynamic, and I assumed you had a mind slash brain, but today you were hitting on all cylinders. Um also thank all of you for joining us today. Uh please follow the show on Insta and Twitter, and if you can rate the show on Apple or iTunes, it really helps us. Um, as we as I say, we like to try to take our tiny show and grow it into a bigger tiny show. We appreciate you following us. Uh as I mentioned, we can stay commercial free if you can support us on Patreon, and if you can't, that's okay. Just be here with us. We love that. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you just smashed a table or your word punching a poop bag, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.