Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
SOCIAL MEDIA: GOOD, BAD OR NOTHING REALLY NEW?
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Therapist Tracey joins Ross to discuss the fact that humans have always worried about whatever technology allowed them to connect and share ideas. The difficulty and benefits of leaving social media, and why no one cares if you do are evaluated. Tangents include: suburbia; figurative "wings"; steamer trunks; fake running away; emotional bank accounts; the lurking danger of coffee shops; Plato; "Meta"; lingo; what it means to be a "modern person"; time machine theory; "Back to the Future". The word "perspicacious" is used a lot and Tracey reveals her passwords.
Notes:
- https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/30/opinion/eric-schmidt-ai.html
- https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2013/jun/24/technology-history-modernity-speed-fears
- https://www.huffpost.com/entry/a-history-of-complaints_b_5400459
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
And I am convinced that everyone's life is messier on the inside than it looks on the outside.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell Pretty much that's gotta be right.
SPEAKER_02Right? I know mine is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, mine's usually just one click away from full-on dumpster fire. So welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder, what? And why? I'm Ross, your host, and today, my guest is talented. Wise. Perspicacious. Dear friend Tracy. Hello, Tracy.
SPEAKER_02Oh, hello. What was that word you just said?
SPEAKER_01Perspicacious.
SPEAKER_02What does that mean?
SPEAKER_01It means you're insightful.
SPEAKER_02Oh, well, I've learned something new already. Thanks for having me back.
SPEAKER_01You're certainly welcome. I had a little stress reading that word because it's not one I use very often.
SPEAKER_02Well, it perked my interest.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's great. Yes. And I hope everyone else is perked. Welcome to the show and thank you so much for joining us. You can help us in the usual ways by sharing the show with people you like who you think will like the show. Follow us on social media and rate us on Apple. We love your support. Please stay in touch with us. We will stay in touch with you. Okay, let's get started.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, let's do it. Jump in.
SPEAKER_01We know a lot of humans use social media. This is not news.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01And we also know that a lot of humans worry about people using social media.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The effect it has on young and old people alike, but especially the young. You know what else we worried about? Go on. We once worried about personal computers. What was it doing to us? And why do we have to have them? People were stressed about that.
SPEAKER_02I remember that actually.
SPEAKER_01Television.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01TV was huge. People worried a lot about TV.
SPEAKER_02My dad called it the idiot box.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And just a big concern about the effect it was having on the youth. They were corrupting their minds. How about telephones?
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_01People went nuts when telephones started. They thought they were so intrusive.
SPEAKER_02Well, they are.
SPEAKER_01And even the inventor, Alexander Graham Bell, didn't want one in his workroom because he didn't want to be interrupted. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02There's so much distraction.
SPEAKER_01And the idea of having like more than one phone in your house was considered madness. Okay, here's another one that drove people crazy. Reading.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01Especially novels and magazines was considered in the 1800s to be part of the speedy life that everyone was leading, that they were reading these superficial stories and articles.
SPEAKER_02Well, they weren't completely wrong.
SPEAKER_01Said that this kind of superficial reading threatened our ability to think deeply and create great works. As if, right? As if that was going to happen anyway. Here's my favorite one.
SPEAKER_02Yes, go on.
SPEAKER_01That people sweated over, like we're really wringing their hands. In the 1600s, people were stressed out about the effect of coffee shops on the moral well-being of all people, because you know what they would do in coffee shops?
SPEAKER_02Talk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. They would talk and socialize. The alarm was sounded in 1677. An Oxford academic said, and this is a quote, why doth solid and serious learning decline? And few or none follow it now in the university? Answer: Because of coffee houses where they spend all their time. So do you think coffee shops are ruining the world?
SPEAKER_02Well, clearly.
SPEAKER_01So we've gone back 400 years, right? No, 500.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What century are we in? 21st? That's 500 roughly. Four or five hundred years. Sure. I'm not great with math. You do the math later. No, good with it. So hundreds of years ago, people were saying the same junk they're saying now, but it goes back even farther than that. I'm going to take you back to 1436. What were they worried about in 1436 of the printing press? But let's go farther back. Wow. Let's go farther back to the time of Plato and Socrates. And now we're talking like three or four hundred years before the current era. And what were they worrying about? People writing. People just being able to write.
SPEAKER_02Well, then they could share ideas with other people.
SPEAKER_01That's the thing.
SPEAKER_02And it might lead to reading.
SPEAKER_01Why do we worry so much about making speech and ideas and opinion sharing readily available? What are we trying to control, do you think?
SPEAKER_02Trevor Burrus, Jr. threatens the current people in power.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. It does, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01And whenever you talk to somebody and they're upset about social media, they're always worried about other people. They're never worried about themselves. It's those people who can't use it correctly.
SPEAKER_02Oh, good point.
SPEAKER_01We're never worried about well, I'm okay.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I'm fine.
SPEAKER_01I'm doing it right.
SPEAKER_02I'm definitely doing it right.
SPEAKER_00But it's those people that come on my page and flame me out. They're not doing it right.
SPEAKER_02People who make me feel bad because they put pretty pictures of their life up there, and then I have to feel bad because they have a better life than I do.
SPEAKER_01Is it so when I was a kid, my father decided to tell me the essence of his philosophy on life.
SPEAKER_03Oh, what was it?
SPEAKER_01He took me figuratively under his wing. He did not have a wing. But he took me and he said, you need to know that people are no damn good. And in that moment, it for me it demarcated the difference between me and my father. Because I did not bel even in that moment, I don't know how old I was, 15 maybe, but I felt, I don't think that. But I think if you think about it, I think a lot of our society is structured around the idea that people aren't very good and you can't really trust them. And so maybe this is just part of it. It's evil unleashed on the world. It's the Pandora's box.
SPEAKER_02The Pandora's box. Well, it you know, I've thought about this too. You know, I um I'm a parent of kids who've grown up in the social media era, right? I have an I have an 18-year-old and an almost uh well, I have an 18-year-old and a 15-year-old.
SPEAKER_01The 18-year-old, so that takes us back to 2003. 2003. So the Internet is still pretty young. So your kid is basically the Internet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's the Internet. And you know, it's funny, I I was one of those parents who um we didn't do a lot of TV. It was like a treat. Like we didn't do a lot of TV with them. We didn't like they didn't have phones for a long time. Like we were probably on the end of less access to those things. And even then, you know, and as they got older and it was like, well, when do they get Instagram? And when do they get access to those things? And you know, how as a parent do you decide what to do? And I think there Dad and I talked about it and came to, well, I think it's our job to help them learn how to use this tool versus you know abstinence only. I mean, I think abstinence only doesn't necessarily work that well for most things. Right. So I mean, there are some things. I think heroin. I think abstinence only is good for heroin.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so we'll put heroin on that side of the ledger. Sure. But everything else is probably okay.
SPEAKER_02I think most things. And so we kind of were like, all right, well, then it's our job to teach them how to use it.
SPEAKER_01And so can I just put Neil Diamond songs on the heroin side of the ledger?
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01Oh no. No. Oh no.
SPEAKER_02No, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_01Okay. My whole fantasy world around you is crumbled.
SPEAKER_02Well.
SPEAKER_01All right, keep going.
SPEAKER_02These are the things we learn when we have conversations.
SPEAKER_01You know? Unregulated conversations lead to Neil Diamond.
SPEAKER_02And here we are talking with words and stuff. We find out things. Please continue your thought. So the idea was how do we teach them how to use it? And I guess that goes back to all these other things. Like how do you teach them how to be thinkers? How do we teach them how to be thoughtful users of whatever it is they're using? Information, people's ideas. Um how do we help them grow out into the world and decide what to do with all these tools and information and other stuff? Because social media can be great. It connects people, it does share different ideas, it exposes you to people that you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to that are outside your circle. I mean, I I know for me, I kind of decided around the uh last presidential election, I just had to step away from Facebook. It that tool was no longer serving me. But Instagram continued to serve me. I felt like I could curate it differently for myself. And I could um find ways to make it more helpful to me than harmful. And I haven't really returned to Facebook. I st I still have a presence there, but uh I check m probably less than once a month.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell You know, it's called meta now. I've heard this. We'll talk about that in a second. Let me ask you this question. Do you feel like you're a modern person?
SPEAKER_02Oh, that is such a good question. In some ways, yes. And in some ways, I'm not sure I know what that means.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I I think it's quite subjective. But one thing I feel pretty comfortable saying is that we are all in our own ways, defining it as we will. We're as modern as we can be right now. Even so, even though we are on the leading edge of modern living, sometime in the not too distant future, people are gonna look back at us as quaint, right, unsophisticated, maybe a little naive, or if nothing else, laboring under a cumbersome and silly set of uh technological limitations.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I think that goes back to the history lesson you gave us, right? Of like writing, you know, felt alarming.
SPEAKER_01Dangerous. Dangerous. It was dangerous.
SPEAKER_02It was dangerous. Yeah. So it is good you know, that is a good point. Like what is modern and and what will that be in a hundred years? Well, they'll look back and think, ah, these people were freaking out about social media. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01They were freaking out about it. Also, I just think a lot of the things that we think are modern, even in the current moment, I think are dumb. Like we all are carrying around our phone. This thing. And where's my phone? And I don't have my phone, and my phone's running out of juice, and phone, phone, phone. It's like this, we're tethered to this device. That seems dumb to me. Like I feel like we're gonna graduate. I don't know what the next thing is gonna be, but I just don't think carrying around something and have and if you lose it, then suddenly you can't do anything. Yes. That seems a little, that already seems a little old-fashioned to me. Or um all the cards we have to carry.
SPEAKER_02Oh, so many cards. Although, honestly, we could choose not to because we could keep them in our phone.
SPEAKER_01Nice. I like, I like what you're doing there. You're a little more modern than I am, even. But then if you lose your phone, you're doubly screwed because now everything's in there. But again, why why should we have to carry things at all? And what about these passwords? I want to buy a pair of socks. I just want one pair of socks. I should probably buy more than one pair at a time, but in this, well, you have to have a password. What's your password? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Well, and honestly, I mean, I probably shouldn't say this out loud on uh you should no say your passwords out loud. I'm just I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_01It's it's password.
SPEAKER_02It's not. I know, right? But no, I I mean I have like three passwords. If someone cracked that code, they'd have everything.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell Oh, everyone listening is busy right now trying to crack you. I bet it's password one, two, three, four. Shh. I think that you know, when we think about like if you ever look at those old pictures from like a hundred years ago or even farther, and you see people horsing buggying around, or you see people going to the doctor to get a leeches treatment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Leeches. Or the goddamn leeches, or the funny clothes people wore. And we look back and we go, oh, those people. Well, in those moments, those people felt just like we did. They were modern. They were up to date. They had the coolest clothes that they could afford. They were using the technology of the day, whatever that was. And and now we look back and they just like, oh, how did they even survive?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And how terrible was that?
SPEAKER_01Without all our stuff that we have. So and and it it one of the things that hit home for me on this was the whole pandemic thing, because a hundred years ago the world went through a pandemic. And it was the same stuff. People didn't want to wear masks. Oh, I know. They they said it was interfering with our freedom. Same arguments, same thing. It's a hundred years, nothing changes.
SPEAKER_02Well, here's what I find interesting. People haven't changed that much. The things around us have changed, but people haven't changed that much. We still worry about the same things. We still want to belong. We still feel insecure. We still have, you know, things that we're healing from from our childhood. Like that, none of those things have shifted or changed, just the things around us have.
SPEAKER_01Exactly right. We haven't invented anything new. We just have different toys and junk. Yes. But it's the same people. Exactly. And now I've been waiting to trot out my time machine theory, and you're exactly the person to ask this question to. My theory is you take a person, and we won't be ridiculous here. Let's keep it within the realm of reasonableness. You take a person from 1850 or so. So there was starting to be more technology. But 1850. You time machine them to the current moment. Okay. So they didn't have any of the toys and junk that we have. You put them in the current moment, and within a week, they're going to be functioning pretty much like anybody else. Within a week. Now, during that week, we're going to expose them to the toys. We're going to show up show them things. Look, airplanes and look, cars, and look, you know, so they're going to be there's going to be a lot to take in. Right. But do you re I don't think it's going to take a more this is my theory, seven to ten days, two weeks at the outside. And probably yes. So before I argue my points, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02I I completely agree with you.
SPEAKER_01Because it's based, it's predicated on this idea that we're the same people. Yes. We just got different toys. So if I transported you 100 years in the future and people are talking through a device in their brain that's implanted at birth, and they're able to talk to anybody they see, you would initially be like, whoa, that is intense. But how long would it take you to get used to doing it?
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think I think the perfect case study has already been done in the Back to the Future movies.
SPEAKER_01Bang. The Back to the Future movies. Okay. Well, do you have a specific example of how that proved my point?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell Well, I think Michael J. Fox went back and forth, and so did Doc, and they adjusted in each era they were in.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Where we're going, we don't need roads.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And did he have sex with his mother? He didn't. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02I don't think they ever con I don't think no.
SPEAKER_01They didn't consummate. Is that what you're about to say?
SPEAKER_02I was, and then I edited myself because it felt wrong. It made me really uncomfortable to even say that out loud.
SPEAKER_01It feels very wrong to say it out loud. I'm so glad I didn't.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I um yeah, so I just I just think we just every once in a while have to slap ourselves in the face because we think we're in like on the cusp of some major crisis because people can go and live in a TikTok mansion. And it's like, yeah, I know, that's a new thing, but it's still the same people doing the same junk that we've always done.
SPEAKER_02Now we get to see more of them.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And there's some real benefit to that. There there is. There's some I mean, there I know there are absolute downsides. You know, I mean, I I have wasted plenty of time scrolling through reels of people dancing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I won't get that time back. But maybe I don't need it back. Maybe I don't need it back. Maybe that 15 minutes, I'm just gonna say it was only 15 minutes, is uh is just fine to have spent there. And now I've seen these people doing these things. And you know what? They're just people too. They're not in Portland, they're in you know, Sri Lanka or wherever they are. And uh they're doing really similar things.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I think we have this fantasy that if we weren't watching TV or Netflix or going to the movie house to the movie show, whatever decade we want to go back to, or living on um watching TikToks or whatever it was, whatever we're doing, that somehow we'd be doing something more noble. Oh. But the reality is not so much none of us get anything to do. Not really. There's like two or three great people.
SPEAKER_00And the rest of us, we we don't it we it doesn't really matter.
SPEAKER_01We should just have fun.
SPEAKER_02I think that's a good point.
SPEAKER_01We're not really doing anything.
SPEAKER_02We're not.
SPEAKER_01So we might as well have fun and watch a couple of vids. So you spend six hours. So you So you forget to go back to work one day. You know, they'll get someone to cover your shift. Okay. So people fret and fret and fret about these things. You know, lately I just saw something about Instagram and its effect on young women, and there's just always a story about it. Seems like every other day is another story about Facebook. And Facebook, for the most part, is already kind of it's dead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, people are still on it. But younger people who really are the trendsetters on when it comes to technology and early adapting, adopting, and adapting, probably, they've already moved on. Like they're not there anymore. And the the bleakest version, I was this is a quote, the bleakest version of what Facebook might become in the next few years, I would say few weeks, if current trends hold, a boomer, a boomer-dominated sludge pit filled with cute animal videos and hyperpartisan garbage. That's a quote from an article I read. That's what people are predicting for Facebook now called Meta.
SPEAKER_02Well, the I that name is not gonna help it. I don't think the name helps it at all.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's it's their hope that their next iteration is going to be a uh fully realized digital world where you and I can have a conversation. Our avatars will meet maybe in a Parisian cafe coffee house. Coffee house. And our avatars will have uh a virtual conversation, and we can also buy junk while we're there, because it's so we'll be buying virtual things in our virtual world and maybe going to our virtual homes. All of this is uh currently exists. You can live in these decentralized kinds of communities now and buy real estate, you know, on the Champs-Elysées, and you can all do all this stuff. So that's what uh Facebook, I guess, is hoping, and then that'll bring younger people back and in the meantime spend some crypto and buy some NFTs.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Look at me, you with all the lingo.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've got a lot of lingo. I'm 98% lingo. Wow. 2% the re 2% I'm 98% lingo, 2% cartoon. Oh. Some people debate that. Some people think it's more like 10% cartoon. So currently you've kind of backed away from Facebook slash meta.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01And so you're more an Instagram person right now, which is owned by Facebook.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I'm aware.
SPEAKER_01So you're still in the family. I am. And we know that these programs, more than anything else, are about selling junk.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's not about us connecting socially. It's not about they want to sell junk. Just like, you know, these superficial novels in the 1800s that people were worried about, they were that was a commercial activity. People wanted us to buy these novels and read them. They did. So there's always sort of money behind all this stuff. So we know it's really not about connectivity. It's really about what how much can I get you to buy? How can I get you to spend all of your time doing this junk? And we know that Facebook in particular is designed to keep us clicking.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Whatever, whatever makes Tracy stay engaged. Yep. What is that thing that makes you stay on? Is it the dancing videos? Is that what keeps you going?
SPEAKER_02It's like I'm going to scroll to the next thing that's going to inspire me to get up and go do something. It's like, oh, yeah. If I hang in here long enough, something's going to inspire me to get up and go do that noble thing.
SPEAKER_01So we know that a lot of people feel bad when they use social media. It doesn't inspire them. It doesn't perk them up. Sometimes it they feel like their self-esteem is plummeting. And but it's still they can't leave it. They don't want to leave it. They talk about leaving. They threaten to leave, but they still stay engaged. Maybe people always make us feel bad. Like when we hang around people, maybe we're always at risk. It can be good, but we can also feel bad. Like, wow, Tracy's riding an exercise bike at home. And I'm not doing that. So I'm happy for her, but now I feel like a schlub.
SPEAKER_02But isn't that a really good point? And I think that's what I was trying to speak to around like how you decide to curate your feed and how you decide to take in that information is the same as how you decide to curate your friend group or the people you s have around you in person, too. Is do you do I look at you and think, oh, I'll bet Ross is living his life better than I am? You know, he's he he dressed better than I did today. I'm wearing ripped jeans. He he's probably noticing that I did that and I didn't show up as you know business casual as he did.
SPEAKER_01Taking notes, I take notes.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Right. So those things I think we can do that in person. Yeah. We can do that online. We can decide. I mean, so much of that is how we decide to take in the information around us and what we decide to make it mean about us.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I think that's a good point. I think that the difference with social media is so much easier to have communities that are bigger, curated communities that are bigger than what we would curate if it was all done in person.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Oh, I think that and also it's not we don't have as deep of the emotional bank account with that person.
SPEAKER_01So that we're the emotional bank account. I like that term.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Yeah. So remember Stephen Covey back in the day?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell I want to say yes, but I don't.
SPEAKER_02The seven habits of highly effective people die? Oh, that was Yeah, that was him. So he came up with I'm sure other people have talked about it too, but he was the first place I was introduced to the idea of the emotional bank account. So it's every relationship you have with another person, you make deposits and you make withdrawals. That's your emotional bank account. And ideally you make more deposits than you make withdrawals. But we all make withdrawals at some point or another. Right. And so if we actually have an emotional bank account with someone, then when we wonder if they're judging us, we get to go back to like, oh, well, actually, I know that they don't do that and that's not what's happening. Or I can ask them if that's what's happening. But I have an actual relationship with that person that's deeper than just what's on the screen. And when it's someone that's just on the screen, you have no idea about their real life. You only know what they're showing you.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02And I am convinced that everyone's life is messier on the inside than it looks on the outside. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01Pretty much that's gotta be right.
SPEAKER_02Right? I know mine is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Mine's usually just one click away from full-on dumpster fire. So, you know, I've started being really interested in this whole leaving social media thing or taking a break and why people can't do it. And the reasons that were familiar to everyone is, you know, people, if they see if someone's someone is i having a toxic experience or just they really don't like themselves on social media, but they can't leave it or put it down. They talk about, well, I have all these connections and I don't want to lose those connections with people, the people that are outside my everyday uh experience, or I'm in work groups, like some kind of working group, and I'll have you know, that's the only way they do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or play groups of any kind, you know, these are my chess people, or these are my knitting group, or whatever. So, you know, you feel like I have to be on for that. And then just general FOMO. Like if I'm not on, I won't know what's happening. So I want to talk a little bit about leaving.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Leaving stuff, not just social media, because social media, in some form or another, whether it's what we have now or likely what we're gonna have very soon, which will be different, whatever this meta thing is, or whatever the next thing is after that. It's here just like writing state, and just like telephones.
SPEAKER_02And coffee shops.
SPEAKER_01And coffee shops have flourished, and people are sitting in there right now having conversations. I've seen this.
SPEAKER_02And they also do social media there.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's right. It's synergistic.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Wow. I didn't even think about that. Wow. You have a great brain. So I have to confess something to you. Go on. I don't like nail diamond. Oh, wait, no, sorry.
SPEAKER_02I think you've already said this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I I've got to go back. I what I want to confess is I like joining things. So I'm gregarious by nature, and I'm a I like being part of various groups and activities. Yeah. But I also like leaving things. I'm a classic leaver.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And um especially when I realize that any kind of dissonance I'm experiencing is not because there's something wrong with the group or the activity, it's because I don't belong there.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_01So I give myself permission to leave. Instead of the instinct to, well, maybe I can fix it, or maybe, maybe I can fix this situation or this group, or I can uh, you know, tailor it so it's more conducive to what I like to do or my values, what I decide, because that's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01To take a whole group and say, I don't like what you're doing, so let's do it this way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I just like to leave because it feels exhilarating to just say, I'm not doing that anymore. I don't have to worry about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if this is done anymore.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Did you ever fake run away from home?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. I well I think.
SPEAKER_01Are you still on the run? Are they still looking for you? That could be.
SPEAKER_02No, no, I was I was I was located. But I never um I I think when I thought about running away, it was not fake. I just could never quite figure out how to I was very practical about it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I remember when I was really little, I remember a time, I mean I was tiny, I was probably four, and I packed my bags, and I remember going to the I know it it seems to be.
SPEAKER_01I'm impressed that you are at four years old, you have a set of bags that you're packing. You have your own Samsonite collection. I did.
SPEAKER_02I did. I don't I I know that I packed something and I know that I carried it. I I don't remember what it looked like, but I remember putting stuff in it.
SPEAKER_01It was a steamer trunk.
SPEAKER_02Probably and I was pulling it along. I like this. And I remember taking it to the front door, and my mom was sitting in the living room, and she said, Where are you going? And I I said, something like I'm leaving, or I I don't remember exactly, but she was like, Okay. And I left, and I remember we had a really steep driveway, and I went to the top of it, and I remember looking up and down the street, and I was like, I don't have anywhere to go.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02And so I turned around and went back in. But it wasn't because I thought someone was gonna come get me. It was because I realized that I I remember standing there and being like, how am I gonna eat? Where am I gonna sleep? I don't I don't know where to go. And so I went back in.
SPEAKER_01You know, for a four-year-old, you were quite perspiscacious. Yeah. Because a lot of kids don't even think about that, I think. Your your reality uh came into clear focus at the end of your driveway. And you're like, I this plan needs to be better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or I'm not gonna make it. And I did a similar thing in the Well the well, first of all, did you get any action from your mom at all? No. Okay.
SPEAKER_02No. And you know, I remember coming back in and she was like, Oh, you're back. And I went back to my I was like, yeah, and I went back to my room and I remember unpacking whatever I packed, my schema trunk.
SPEAKER_01You unpacked that took a while.
SPEAKER_02It probably I mean that was clear. Big big and I'd you know taken it all the way down the driveway.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell It was a journey, uh emotional journey for sure.
SPEAKER_02Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Your bank account was a little low by the end of that walk.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think my my bank account with my parents was off and they were making they were making they were bouncing their emotional check a lot. Wow.
SPEAKER_01And then I'm saying their emotional checks.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. A lot. And so then I did it again like around fourth or fifth grade. Yeah. For for months, I uh collected canned food and money and other stuff and hid it in my closet.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, you are such a planner. So you learned. So your 10 or 11-year-old self is like, okay, I gotta get canned food.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01I gotta have money, okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh. I had gotten it all together and I remember one day I left, I put it all in my backpack. It was a uh navy blue LL bean backpack. And I was on my way to walk down. We lived at that time in New Jersey, and I could walk into town and get on a train to go into New York City. Okay. And that was my plan. And then I got there to the train station and I sat on the bench and I had the same conversation with myself that I had when I was four. I was like, well, a hotel is gonna cost a lot more money than I have.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02I don't have money to pay for an apartment. I'm not old enough to get a job. This is all the food I have. I can't really do this. And I walked back home.
SPEAKER_01Wow. And then did they get any action that time?
SPEAKER_02No, they didn't know I they didn't know I was doing any of it.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's yeah, so but that's pretty impressive. I'm pretty impressive with your young self. Um in both regards that you knew that you had to be prepared, and you did so to the extent you could imagine what that meant, but that each time you got to the precipice uh of where your planning took you and you realized it's still not adequate. Right. And I, of course, never had those kinds of thoughts. Now, my running, I didn't actually ever run away, but I did a fake one day. I remember I was really mad, don't know why. And I wanted to fake runaway. Yeah. Which for me meant I want people to see me running away and stop me and say all the things.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Oh, we we need you. Where are you going?
SPEAKER_01Well, no, don't leave us. I had of nine people in my family. That was never gonna happen. Right. It would have been like, oh yeah, hey, thanks. If they saw me, be like, see you later. So yeah, so I remember f um I kept trying to be seen sneaking away. And no one would want see me. How old were you? I was like four or five at the most. I think, though, that leaving anything is a really great expression of personal liberty. I agree with you. And I'm not sure people really care if you leave as much as we want them to. Just like my family, you know, my fake running away didn't really accomplish anything. In your case, no one seemed to bat an eye.
SPEAKER_02No. Well, they didn't even know I was missing. And I was an only child.
SPEAKER_00Didn't we used to have a kid, George? Don't you remember a kid, a shorter person? Sure, sure, there was one here. I sure don't, Millie.
SPEAKER_01I do not remember. So I think that a couple of things are at work here and why people don't really care if we leave things. And one of the most important things maybe has to do with the fact that when we tell a group of people that are doing what they're doing that we're leaving, we create sort of a little bit of a crisis for them. In a sort of a psychological crisis of cognitive dissonance. They either have to conclude that maybe there's something wrong with what they're doing, because you're leaving, or they have to conclude there's something wrong with you.
SPEAKER_02That's usually the one they choose, I think.
SPEAKER_01Of course. And it's best that you leave. If you don't like it, why don't you leave? I ever heard that. Oh, yeah. And so I think whenever we tell people that we're unhappy with something that's going on, what they re they just it's threatening at some level, and they just want us to leave.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Just go. Go and take your little complaints elsewhere.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I once my the first time I was able to afford a house was in a very suburban neighborhood, and it was very, very uh controlled living. And I hated it so much. So I would complain about this neighborhood to other neighbors. We'd be at a social event, and I'd just be making fun of all the things. And so that was like my normal shtick, and I wasn't even mindful of what I was doing. And one day, this guy who I liked, I'm doing my shtick, and he stops me halfway through and he goes, Hey, if you don't like it here, what are you doing here?
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And it was like he figuratively slapped me with his figurative wing.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Like my dad had his figurative wing, and he's, and I was like, Yeah, what am I doing here? And so I left.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it took that moment of like, it was like somebody shaking you by the shoulders and going, look, you're just constantly complaining.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What are you doing here in this space? Right. This isn't for you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Everyone else likes living like this. Right. It took me, I'm embarrassed. I almost didn't want to say, but I had I lived there for 10 years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Before I finally realized this is not good for me, and it's not their fault.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01I just need to get out of here.
SPEAKER_02Right. It does it wasn't a fit for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was all. And what's liberating about that feeling is like, oh, I don't have to do all the work to make this make sense. Right. I also don't have to change anybody. Yeah. And I just need to get out of here.
SPEAKER_02But isn't that the idea of really tuning in and listening to yourself? And when you find yourself complaining, making fun of something, being uncomfortable in it, then it's a message to yourself to look and say, ah, is it time for me to do something different?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell That is so well said. That's exactly right, I think. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. It's a message to yourself. All those feelings that we project onto other people in that in that spec in that context, yeah, that I think we're really just talking to ourselves.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Aren't we? I mean, it's the same. And whether you're on social media and you're constantly feeling judged or you know feeling bad about it, it's like, oh, maybe I should change this up. Look at what's in my sphere of influence. What can I change that would have that be different? And whether it's a relationship or a friendship or some group you've joined that now you don't feel good in, and you're looking around, you're like, these people make me feel bad. It's like, well, do they? They all seem fine with what's happening.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And this is what happened to me with social media, exactly. It felt started feeling more and more toxic. So I was part of social media when it started as a thing. I even was on MySpace. Oh, look at you. I was um I had a MySpace experience. You were so modern. I was very modern in my moment. But I was on all the things. And um, it felt more and more started feeling more and more toxic to me. And I a lot of my posts were poking fun at the whole um sort of conceit of social media and what it does to us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it just started feeling worse and worse for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I was either, when I was on social media, I was either needing something from other people or I was tending to needy people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I was either being needy or I was tending to someone who says, Oh, please send me a hug today because I have to clip my toenails, or whatever the thing was. And I just remember it was exhausting for me. Yes. In both respects. Like the fact that I would go on there and try in my own way, trying to be funny or cute or whatever. I was still looking for that. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Kind of uh I found that from Facebook too. That was when I got off. I was like, wait, what am I looking for? And I'm I'm I'm I'm looking for someone to validate my especially around the election. I was like, oh, I'm getting so angry and I'm looking for someone to validate, like I'm just looking for a place to rant. I'm looking for an echo chamber, I'm looking for someone to, you know, uh do something. And I was like, I I don't what if I stepped away and I didn't do that anymore? So first I just took it off my phone and I was like, oh, that feels better.
SPEAKER_01Right. Then it's not always right there.
SPEAKER_02Trevor Burrus Right. And it's just it's harder to get there. And then what I found was that when that was the case, I felt better. I felt lighter. Right. And I could have conversations with people in person about those things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm currently, as an individual, not on anything. And I didn't know what was going to happen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I did sort of make a little show of leaving. I said, I'm going to be leaving Facebook or with social media, and here's why. And nope. It was like I look back at my behavior then and it was like, wow, I was still being super needy with this leaving thing. It's like, it's like do it was like the fake runaway.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I was like, look at me, look, I'm going. Okay. And then I would stay on a few more days. Like, am I getting it?
SPEAKER_02Does anyone care?
SPEAKER_01And no, no one cared because it's the same thing. It's like, you're leaving our community. Well, that is weird. That's kind of a threat. So why don't you just get the hell out? Get your steamer trunk, get your ass down to the end of the driveway, and we're not going to stop you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Here's a can, some canned beans. So, yeah. So, what I discovered is that I hadn't thought of the term lighter, but I definitely felt lighter. But one the thing that I really noticed immediately is it was peaceful.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01So there was no noise. Yeah. I spent real time with my real friends.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I spent actual real time with my real friends.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01As opposed to uh reacting to friend number 735's bad day and giving them encouragement, which drains the emotional bank account.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Normally in real life, you don't see friend number 735 because you only know them because you met them at that thing, that time five years ago. You wouldn't wouldn't even recognize them on the street probably, and they wouldn't recognize you. And even if you did, you probably have nothing to say. Right. Yeah. And so none of that was going on. But I was with real people in real time. Yeah. And that's felt kind of different and nourishing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And pleasant to not have to be surrounded by all of the need that I was perceiving.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And also pleasant not to be cultivating that for myself.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Constantly asking people to like. And then I started doing things that I never had time to do, like writing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But my so my behavior and my experience started to change. And I found that I didn't miss it any of it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And what people say is like, and I I made the same argument. It was, well, there's my cousin, Joe, who lives 3,000 miles away. I never would know what he was doing but for Facebook. Right. And so yeah, on the one hand, it's kind of nice to know that he's going fishing that day. But it hybrids. It's just I you don't I don't need to manage everyone. Like I don't need to manage all that information. So I found it very peaceful.
SPEAKER_02What does belonging mean and what do I want to belong to? And where do I want to spend my time and energy and what You know, what feeds me and what takes away and how do I want to manage those relationships? It's um it's a it's it feels like a transformative time.
SPEAKER_01It is. I think that's right. When I started thinking about the conversation about the show with you and I wanted to get your thoughts on, um I didn't want to be a bashing of social media because I think it's as I said, it's here to stay, and and it's always been here because it's all about how we connect with each other. And you know, we used to knock rocks together and then we learned about writing and then reading, and then coffee shops came, and then TV and telephones and all that. We've all and it was said we're the same people, we're gonna keep doing this. But I really wanted it to be more about the whole process of it's not so much how things are structured in the current moment, in our current modern moment, but it's more about m being mindful of how you feel in that moment, in that particular part of the stream and being willing to try getting out once in a while and just see how it feels.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think I think that's a good point. And I think like it's it's like any other tool that you're gonna use, you know, whether it's books or being in a book club or, you know, however we try to connect with people, it's so much more about ourselves and what we make that mean about us than it is about anything else. I mean, I think you can use social media for good and have it add to your world and have it be a place of connection or inspiration or broadening your thinking on something, uh, you know, depending on how you curate your feed and who you connect with. And if you make it a portion of what you do, not all of how you connect. So using it so that it works for you instead of against you, then it's useful like any other modern tool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I really feel like what I've landed on, at least for now, is I don't have a problem with any of this stuff. I just think you have to constantly look at how you are living in whatever world you choose to live in, social media-wise or outside of it, and just decide, does this feel right?
SPEAKER_02I yeah. Well, I think it goes back to what I was saying at the very beginning when I was talking about how to coach my kids how to use this. It's like, well, be a thinker, be thoughtful about how it's working for you or not for you, and then make decisions about it.
SPEAKER_01Be a thinker. Well, Tracy, it's been so great having you on again. You're so thoughtful and fill in the blank.
SPEAKER_02I don't remember the word. Go on.
SPEAKER_01Perspicious.
SPEAKER_02Oh, perspiscacious.
SPEAKER_01Your perspiscity is quite intriguing to me. And I appreciate you and all your great thoughts. And thanks everyone for joining us for this episode. If you happen to like what we're doing, and I if you got this far, hopefully you do, and you're not being forced to listen inside a steamer trunk, we would sure love your help. So follow the show on social media, Instagram or Twitter. We're there. And uh your ratings on Apple Podcasts can help us. Your glowing reviews can help us as we try to grow our tiny little community into a larger tiny little community. So, contact us by email, tell us what sort of topics you'd like us to cover, or just encourage us. We are Love Starve. That's we're all in this together. That's why we go on social media, that's why we go to the coffee shops. We're looking for love. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are a boomer dominating a sludge pit or just someone who likes a little heroine and Neil Diamond, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.