Smells Like Humans
Top 5% global podcast! Smells Like Humans is a seasonal podcast dedicated to bringing a humorous perspective to quirky and curious aspects of human behavior. Each show, the SLH crew will focus on a different topic, and share personal stories and observations in a way that sounds like you’re hanging out with your funny friends. The stories and commentary are presented with humor and warmth, since let’s face it: we all smell like humans. (Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com)
Smells Like Humans
DON'T "YUCK MY YUM": ATTACHMENT STYLES AND LOVE LANGUAGES
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Therapist Tracey and Co-host Madeline join Ross to discuss relationship styles and why things sometimes feel like a stale Starbucks bagel. Tangents include "sprinkler moments"; toot closets; head fleas; dog houses; truffle pigs; brain chemicals; deal breakers; the sunk cost fallacy; relationship maintenance . If you are in the mood to play a drinking game, drink every time you hear "Stan Tatkin".
Notes:
- https://www.simplypsychology.org/attachment-styles.html#adult
- https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/the-5-love-languages-explained
- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fixing-families/201606/4-ways-breathe-new-life-stale-relationship
- https://www.5lovelanguages.com/quizzes/love-language
- https://www.thepactinstitute.com/therapy-with-stan
- https://www.gottman.com/
- https://www.estherperel.com/
Contact us: contactSLH19581980@gmail.com
That's totally fair. And I guess I should clarify, I'm not saying that I have a fart kink, first of all. Second of all.
SPEAKER_04Let's make that very clear. Everybody in New Zealand, write that down. Welcome to another episode of Smells Like Humans. This is the podcast where we explore the curious things that people do, the very human things that grab our attention and cause us to wonder, what and why? I'm Ross, your host, and today I am excited to have my friend and therapist for the show, Tracy. Hi, Tracy.
SPEAKER_01Hi, I just want to clarify I'm not your therapist. I'm a therapist. But thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_04I know that's what you think. And today I also welcome my delightful and brainy friend, Madeline, as the show co-host. Hey Madeline. Hey Ross. Thank you for having me in. And I say Tracy is uh my therapist, but really she's sort of the therapist for the show.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I love that. Put that on your resume. Done.
SPEAKER_04You need to do that. And welcome everyone out there. We are now deeper into our second season, and we appreciate all of you very much. And we hope we're providing you with the company that you need while you do the things that you need to do. At the end of the show, I'm going to tell you how to help us, but uh spoiler, one way to help us this week is to really get on Apple and iTunes. And if you can do that, and give us a five-star review and a glowing rating. A handful of you have done that, but we really need more of that because apparently in this world, that is the currency that gets you more listeners, and we are trying to grow our community. So thanks for that. Okay. So today we know humans. Humans have a tendency to want to be with other humans. Have you noticed that?
SPEAKER_01We are relational creatures. Ooh, yes.
SPEAKER_04Sometimes we'll even want to partner up, cohabitate, even get married, all the things. Where I want to kind of start is the reality that you know, you know how sometimes, like I almost never go to Starbucks. But you know, you go in there and they have like some pastries and junk and a little glass deal.
SPEAKER_01They do.
SPEAKER_04And they look good.
SPEAKER_01They do. I love a pastry case.
SPEAKER_04Every s a pastry case. Every time I and I almost never go, but when I do go, I'm tempted to get a bagel or a thing.
SPEAKER_01The lemon the lemon cake. Whatever it is.
SPEAKER_04But here's been my experience. No matter how good it looks, it's staying.
SPEAKER_01Disappointing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's good that you picked Starbucks for this for this example instead of like a bakery pastry case. Yes. Right? That's different.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Well, it speaks to where you shop, right? Right, right.
SPEAKER_04So very good. I love the metaphorical brain working right now. So, like a Starbucks bagel, sometimes relationships can look good on the outside, but they can get stale. So I thought, who better to talk to today than Tracy, my therapist?
SPEAKER_01Perfect. I'm glad we can have a session here.
SPEAKER_04And um I have a personal concern that I will share with you later. So remind me if I forget.
SPEAKER_02Foreshadowing.
SPEAKER_04But yes. Oh, yeah, good question.
SPEAKER_01You know, I mean in the good ones, yeah. If it's going well, that's what you'll see. I guess that makes sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I wanted to start off by sharing my simple relationship formation model, which I came up with. So the first phase, I call it the excitement phase. And I think during that phase, we're all focused on the wrong things.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_04So physical attraction, everybody's working overtime usually to present like their best sides, their best version of themselves, or a fake version of themselves. They're not doing all the things that they're going to do later.
SPEAKER_01I just call it the best, the most curated version.
SPEAKER_02Curated.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But there's something a little selfish about it sometimes too, right? It's you're you're in that moment where it's, oh, I'm wanted. Oh, I'm wanted right now. So it's a little internal, I think, sometimes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And it's exciting.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's fun. Well, it's when all the brain chemicals are flying around making things fun.
SPEAKER_04I like brain chemicals.
SPEAKER_01They're good. They're good. Oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin. Oh. Oh, they feel great.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It's a really great. Everybody who's ever been in the excitement phase knows how wonderful and magical it is. You forget your name. It's just exciting.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's designed that way to get you into the next part. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there you go. Which I call, in my little simple model, the adjustment phase. I like it. It's good. So that's when we start seeing the person more as they really are. And we start seeing people maybe a little bit let their guards down. And this is a big thing in relationships. It's kind of a sidebar, but not really. So people will say, like I've had people say to me, are you at the stage where you can pass gas in front of each other? Are you at that stage? And I have a theory about that. Go on. Specifically. Yes, please. You should never get to that stage.
SPEAKER_01See, I'm I I'm with you on that. Oh no, I disagree. I'm not saying that if it like happens, it should be all I mean, it happens sometimes, right? Of course. But I don't think it should be something you're just like freely open to.
SPEAKER_02Oh man. I disagree. I mean, I come from a family in which fart jokes are the height of humor. We all love our fart jokes. And I don't know. I think there's something about letting your body be - acknowledging that you are an animal in a sense, right? Like, I don't want to yuck your yum on this. No, go for it.
SPEAKER_01No interest in yucking your yum or anyone else's. And I think in terms of the staleness of a relationship, there are things that we can cultivate that will continue the interest and the excitement phase as opposed to getting so deeply ingrained in the safety and security school that the like erotic, lusty, exciting part of the relationship goes dormant. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02That's totally fair. And I guess I should clarify: I'm not saying that I have a fart kink, first of all. Second of all.
SPEAKER_04Let's make that clear. Let's make that very clear. Everybody in New Zealand, write that down.
SPEAKER_02But second of all, no, I agree. I guess I I like the I like being comfortable enough with someone for that, as long as there is also still that excitement and interest. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's a really good way to put it. I like my the I guess where I land on this is that I think that you want to get to a place where you're comfortable with anything happening, whatever it is, however you're feeling, or whatever your body is doing, that would be the ideal. Yes. But um some people use passing gas as sort of like an important thing to do in and of itself. And I just feel like um that for me is to use your expression, which I've never heard ever. It yucks my yum.
SPEAKER_02Oh, love it. Oh, it's a good expression. Yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Where did where did you hear yucking your yum? Where does that come from?
SPEAKER_01It's a thing in like sex education kind of stuff, when we talk about like judging someone else's interest, it's like you don't need to yuck somebody else's yum. Just because that's not for you doesn't mean it's not for them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's a good one. Um but when you first said it, I was thought you were speaking a foreign language.
SPEAKER_02I'm like, what's happening?
SPEAKER_04Um so this adjustment phase, whether you're passing gas or holding it in and finding your favorite little closet to take care of your things. Right.
SPEAKER_02Um the tooting closet, we're all familiar with.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Or corner. Um the uh this this phase can last a long time. You make tweaks, you make changes, you make compromises, you kind of test out how that feels. And um, as you make these accommodations, uh you might get to the point where, hmm, this is too much. But a lot of people stay in that phase for a long time because of the sunk relationship costs.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04You've already put in all of this time with this other person, and even though it's very clear now that there's a mismatch at some level, the cost of like unwinding and starting something new is perceived to be too high, and they just stay in this phase perpetually. Right. Yes. So that's phase two, the adjustment phase. So people can be in that for years. Yes. And you have pe you you these people will come to you and tell you their tales of woe, uh, and you at some point will say, Well, you know, why don't you just sound like you're ready to get at it? And they're like, oh, but and then they give you the reasons why it's impossible.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04The anchors that keep them there.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So it's my model does not necessarily correlate with a specific length of time because you can just be an adjustment. You can get married in adjustment phase and you can stay married for a hundred years and never get out of the adjustment phase. But the final phase, if you make it, is what I call the comfy phase.
SPEAKER_03I love comfy.
SPEAKER_04And uh I think it's hard to get there, but if you get there, then it's just that. It's like you're comfortable with the other person, you can be intimate with them, you can share your secrets, you have total trust, they know you, you know them, but you still find them delightful at some level. You still it's it's not a tolerance phase.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Which I still see is basically adjustment. Like when you see people go out to lunch and they're both reading and no one's talking. That doesn't necessarily mean that they don't like each other anymore, but it might mean that.
SPEAKER_03It could.
SPEAKER_04It could mean, but it could also mean that that's part of being in the comfy phase. Like we can go out and we can be reading and still we feel close to each other.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you're the person I want to be silent with.
SPEAKER_04Yes, you're the person I want to be silent with. Yeah. That is my new pickup line.
unknownOoh.
SPEAKER_04No, I have two lines now. I don't want to yuck your yum, but you're the person I want to be silent with.
SPEAKER_01There you go. I want to know how this turns out. Me too, and I also we each get a quarter every time. Ooh, I like that.
SPEAKER_04I like that you're monetizing my relationship experience. Yep, yep, yep. So before we go any further, and um not knowing where that actually is gonna be, but before we go to that next place, what do you think of that simple three-step model?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I like it a lot. And I I think it actually matches up with other models of thinking about relationships.
SPEAKER_04Aaron Powell You're telling me I ripped it off.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm telling you that you match up with other people's observations. All right. She's saying you're onto something.
SPEAKER_02I'm on to something. You're on to something.
SPEAKER_01That other people have also been on to.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_04You're just late.
SPEAKER_02You're like a treble hound that has found a field where there's already like 16 other treble hounds.
SPEAKER_04I know, but I think when it's like, hey guys, have you heard about Myspace?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think the idea is that we just keep observing humans, right? And and we find our own observations and then we make sense of it. And other people have also made sense of it. And then those are cons when they're consistent with other people, you're like, oh, maybe I really maybe I didn't say that. Maybe I did it. So Ross, I'm saying I think you did it.
SPEAKER_04Yay. I always wanted to be a truffle hound.
SPEAKER_01Oh, good.
SPEAKER_04Um running around. Or a truffle pig.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, even better.
SPEAKER_04Like in France, in the south of France, being a truffle pig.
SPEAKER_01I'd like to be in the south of France. Like I'd also like to be in the south of France. That's great. Let's go.
SPEAKER_04And so we'll all go to the south of France, but I'm going to be the truffle pig. Okay. You guys can't be the truffle pig.
SPEAKER_01I'm fine with that. Yeah, no, that feels good. Deal done.
SPEAKER_04I think it's officially a tangent now. Yeah. Okay. So let me just go back to the Trevor Burrus.
SPEAKER_01So back to relationship models. Yeah. I think you know, what you described as that beginning spot is like the initial attraction and what's going to make us then kind of decide we want to step into that next phase and figure out what that is. And you know, Stan Tatkin is a guy I really like, a relationship guy out there. And he talks about what you're talking about, that adjustment phase, in being the auditioning phase.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I like that. And you can you can audition forever.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02You could just keep auditioning.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. Audition phase. You can be in that forever where you're like, is this working? I don't know if this is working. Maybe this is working. I wonder if I tweaked it this way, if it would ooh, I don't think it's working. Maybe. And you keep doing that. You could do that. I mean, I think I, you know, I was in a 20-year relationship where I think I did that for a long time, right? And I think many of us can be there. That doesn't mean, you know, and then I can get think you can get to that comfy phase, which is what Stan Tatkin calls the secure functioning relationship.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And he describes that as being two people who have stopped auditioning, have decided that, you know, they're able to talk about the things that are difficult, they're able to connect with each other, they're able to continue growing their relationship, they're continuing to create a life together, and they're doing something collaborative. And they have their own things. They're both a burden, they're both in imperfect because everyone is. But they've agreed that your burden, some your burdensomeness, just made up a word, is um okay with me. This is baggage I want to carry. Yeah, exactly. I'll carry yours, you'll carry mine. We'll carry this together, and it's worth doing that. You're no longer auditioning. Right.
SPEAKER_04This is a truffle pig that I want to carry.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04I want to be a package. Let me hold it.
SPEAKER_02There is there's your third pickup line. I want to carry your truffle pig.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_02Right. Or I want to be your truffle pig. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Is that a song?
SPEAKER_01That one might be taken sexually. Well, I mean, that's okay. Well, that's part of it. Ideally, yes. Well, for some people. For most. For lots of us. Yes.
SPEAKER_04So I started um reading about attachment styles, and I've really never been people would ask me, just friends, like, well, what's your attachment style? Because I know I've been single for a long time. So like, well, what's your attachment style? By the way, you mention acting. I I always say that if life could be like an audition waiting room, because people, if you've ever been around other actors waiting to audition, they are so almost like 99%. There's always one person who doesn't fit, but there's like 99% of the people are so unbelievably friendly.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04So friendly.
SPEAKER_02Which is life, right? I mean, that's life.
SPEAKER_04And you know, you don't know if you've been performing long enough, you actually don't know how they're gonna select you. And you know if you act like a jerk, unless you're famous already. If you act like a jerk in any way to anybody, that could be the end of it. Negative impact, yeah, yeah. So you're just nice to everybody. Anybody, everybody, if there's a mouse in a cage, you're like, oh, the mouse, and you might hate mice, but you're like, oh, I love those moments. And then as soon as you come out of the audition, it's like, I'm out.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you don't even say anything to anybody. Yeah, you just leave.
SPEAKER_04See you, losers. Anyway, until the next time. Exactly. Oh, I remember you from the last time I saw you. Anyway, it's a magic world. We should all live in that world. Maybe not. So attachment styles. This was kind of a new thing for me because people would ask me, like, what is your attachment style? And I'd be like, I don't know. So I read about it. And there's different, I've seen different ways that it's described, but I just picked three that made sense to me, and that's secure, avoidant, and anxious.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Those are the three main that you talk about. Then there's disorganized and some other things, but those are the three main ones that makes it a simple way to talk about it.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So I'm going to give you my basic understanding, but I've already decided that I don't believe in the categorical nature of these labels. I like the idea of them existing on a continuum.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I think that's accurate.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay. So you're with me on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So secure, I've just kind of boiled down to someone who's interested in intimacy and trust and is comfortable in that kind of relationship. They're they're grounded there. Avoidant is someone who's more uh not cool with intimacy, or maybe is a little afraid of it, or they're just super independent, super autonomous. And it's not like they're not looking for connection, but they maybe are super comfortable not having that kind of connection, or not establishing at least immediately that level of intimacy.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04And then anxious are people who uh have a lot of um emotional highs and lows. They may be the jealous types, they may need a lot of affirmation from a partner. Am I getting that? Am I getting close to I'm this is my interpretation of what these styles are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I was just listening to you, and then I was gonna hop in and hop in. Okay. So um secure is the place that all of us are striving for. Right. It's that like if you were, you know, you're like, oh, I'm safe in the world, no matter what happens, I've got this. I believe that I'm lovable and I'm worthy of uh another healthy person to be in a relationship with. Um when things come my way, I can see them, notice them. Sometimes I think, ooh, that might be about me. I should do something about that. Other terms like, oh, that's not me. Good luck over there, right? That's a secure.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01No one lives there full time.
SPEAKER_04Okay, good. That's good to me.
SPEAKER_01Nobody lives there full-time. That's true.
SPEAKER_04That's really good to know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's comfortable. Right. Because every single family we grew up in had imperfections, so we have gaps in our our health of that. No one lives there full-time.
SPEAKER_04Madeline had a happy family.
SPEAKER_01I did. I am so pleased for that.
SPEAKER_02Again, nothing's perfect, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01It was pretty pretty close. That's fantastic. Well, you then you have a higher chance of living insecure more often.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell Well, that's good. I mean, one of the things though, this came up in the last episode that I would say made my family life a happy family is that uh, and this is gonna be a weird way to phrase it, I have depression and OCD. Uh but uh so the the thing that made it happy was that my mother also has depression and could recognize that when I was a kid uh and we had a really healthy relationship around that. So it's not that it's flawless, it's that it's been uh yeah, healthy, healthy.
SPEAKER_04There was an alignment there that was Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well you had emotional connection and someone that could see you for who you were and didn't need to make it about themselves. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of that. I mean, that's what helps create a secure um base. So that's the place we're striving for. Anxious and attachment, right? Or anxious and avoidant are the things we go to when we get scared. Okay. So it's just a style. It's like, ah, I got worried in this relationship. It feels uncomfortable, I got scared that I'm not worthy, you don't like me, I got I don't feel worthy, any of those things. And then some people tend more when that when they feel that way to go more towards avoidant, which Stan Tatkin calls these um an anchor, which is the secure, an island, which is the avoidant, and a wave, which is anxious. I I think those are interesting ways to think about it because the avoidant goes off and is like, ooh, I'm gonna hop in my canoe and run on over to the island. Nobody needs to be over here with me. I've got this, I'm all by myself. I'm fine, I'm like, I'm totally fine over here. I don't need anybody, I'm totally good. Back off, everyone, right? Um, and so they will feel like that person in the relationship where you're like, Where'd you go? Where'd you go? We were just talking about something and you disappeared. And they're like, I I need some space. Um the anxious person um hops in their canoe and is like out there in the waves, being like, Hey, hey, could somebody tell me I'm okay? I'm kind of worried over here. Can they tell me I'm lovable? I'm kind of worried. Can you tell me that we're okay? I'm could someone tell me my friend, could you throw it? Could you throw it? I'd like you to be over here with me. Could you could you get them closer, please? And then then they have a harder time soothing themselves. So the secure person is pretty comfortable soothing themselves. The anxious person wants other people to soothe them. And the avoidant person is like, um, I need no one. That's where I'll be safe over here. Right. I I am essuing soothing. None soothing too. No, no soothing. Soothing is unsafe.
SPEAKER_04So um I want to talk about really quickly which type we all tend. I'm just saying a tendency.
SPEAKER_01I'm not saying I tend toward anxious. Oh, I never would have guessed that. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I I work, you know, I did not grow up in a family that gave me a secure base.
SPEAKER_04You didn't know Madeline's family.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. We'll adopt you. Thank you. I could use that. Yeah. Um, I've I'm doing a lot of my own parenting to myself now. But which and I'm a much better parent than my parents were for myself. Congratulations. Yeah, it's good. I've come a long way. I'm almost 50. It's good. Still more work to do. So um right, so I I grew up in a family where it was my job to soothe everyone else and make everything okay, and I was always told that I wasn't okay, right? So my style is that I get anxious and I wonder, I want that external validation, right? But what I've learned is that um, sure, I can have some of that, but if I come to my grounded secure place, I've learned that I'm actually fine just as is. And I am lovable and worthwhile. So I've worked to be more secure. But if I'm in a relationship dynamic, particularly an intimate partner relationship, um, it is easy for me to get knocked off that base and head on over to anxious.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01I've gotten pretty good at being like, hey, I got knocked off my base. I'm feeling pretty anxious over here. Right. Um, I need to either take some time to ground myself or can you help me? Yeah. Can you can you help me? I'm I'm needing some reassurance. Can you tell me that? And if my person can say, Oh, yeah, honey, like we're, you know, we're good. Sorry, you got knocked off there. Let me help you soothe there so you can get back to that secure base. And that's part of that secure functioning relationship place is when you can be with someone that you can understand your styles and it's not something wrong about you. Right. It's that then, and it's not your job to help the, you know, to fix it for the other person, but it is your job to collaboratively say, let me, let me, let me help. I'm in this with you. I'm in this with you. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That's a really good, clear way to explain that style. Um How about you, Madeline? Do you have a do you think you lean toward any one of these?
SPEAKER_02I think I've been I've been thinking about it as this is coming up, and I think that I end up in avoidant, but don't realize that I'm in an island and not on land. Yeah. Uh I think like I think I'm doing good, and then I look around and I'm like, oh wait, there's water on all sides of me and it's closing in. Oh no. And then when I notice, I get in the water and I get into anxious, right? So it's sort of this like this this cycle for me, I think, of where for a while I think I'm I am fine, and then for a while I'm like, no, I'm definitely still fine, and then I realize I'm not fine.
SPEAKER_04That seems like it would go hand in hand with that type, the avoidant type. Because you since you're not really looking for that kind of affirmation and connection as a natural attachment style, you may not even notice.
SPEAKER_02Right. And then when you look up and realize that you are not having it.
SPEAKER_04Oops, I'm writing letters to the government on an old typewriter. Right. Uh maybe something's wrong.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um That's interesting. What type do you think are most people, like the average person, if we were to go outside in downtown Portland right now, which is where we are, you know there's in the world.
SPEAKER_01There's been research on this. And the figured they say, and I'm I'm probably gonna get the numbers not exactly right, but but um because I was looking at this not too long ago, and they were saying like around 50 percent is secure. Okay. And then I think it was like higher than that. Yeah than I would have guessed. Yeah. And then I think it was like I wanna say like 30, 35 percent was anxious, and then you've got that other, I'm not good at math. That other percentage, 20-something percent, is um avoidant. And and it that's a general idea. But what they'll also say is that most like, you know, currently in the dating pool, when you get older, um, it's uh not so many secure people out there because they're already in healthy relationships.
SPEAKER_02They've settled in, they've dropped out of the so that the percentage skews as well.
SPEAKER_01So the percentage skews as you get older into like what's out there in the dating pool now. It's like, oh, we've got a lot of anxious and avoidant people who are working hard to be secure, but yeah. None of us there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So this is interesting information, probably for everybody listening as they quickly try to assess where they are and whether they fit into the norm. I'm pretty sure that I've tended toward avoidant my whole life. Um I think that's my normal resting place. I do like it though when things progress to a secure space. So it's not that I don't want that, but it's a lot takes a lot longer for me to get there.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha.
SPEAKER_04Um and it's not because uh a lot of people will read that as, oh, well, you have a fear of intimacy. And it's like, no, I actually like being in that kind of relationship, but it just I don't get there as fast as some people do. Right. Um and uh I think some people think that I'm doing it as a um as an um attraction strategy. Like I'm gonna play hard to get. And it's like, no, no, I actually am hard to get.
unknownI'm not playing.
SPEAKER_04I'm not playing. Um and again, I am single, and there's probably a reason. But when I was um the reason I think I think I've been like this for a long time is that I remember I was in high school and I started um a relationship very, very early on with this uh girl in high school. And uh we were still in the very early excitement part of it. And um I discovered this concept which I've used my entire life, and it's I call it the sprinkler moment. And the sprinkler moment can be anything, but in this in the very original, in the OG.
SPEAKER_00Right, the first iteration.
SPEAKER_04Um we were uh this girl and I went on some sort of class field trip as you do when you're in school, grade school. We were in high school, but I don't know where we were, but it was over and we were waiting for a bus to come. And it was Southern California, it was a warm day in the spring. And um Are you guys from California? Are you in California? You're not California? They have these big sprinklers, rainbird sprinklers that go chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk ch chang. Yes. Okay, and some of them are pretty heavy duty. And there was a heavy duty one going in this like flower bed at the time.
SPEAKER_02This is a really good fole, by the way. I enjoyed I enjoyed the foley, by the way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, you're welcome.
SPEAKER_01I was into it also. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So um, so there are the sprinklers going, it's hot, and she was an acting kid too, and she was just very like open to the world. And she to this day, I still know her to this day, and she's a very one of the most interesting people I know. But um, so she goes running over to get into the water, like hit let the sprinkler come down on you. So she stands there with her back to this rainburge sprinkler, and she puts her arms out and throws her head back to look at this the sky as she's gonna get you know sprinkled on. And the sprinkler is coming, it comes back and it starts its cycle again, gets to her, and it was a thick stream. It wasn't a sprinkle, it was more like fire hose. And it hits her in the back of the head, and it's a splat noise. Oh, and her head kind of goes forward and she laughs and she doesn't get hurt. Oh, good. But I'm watching this whole thing from about 30 paces. Right. And I'm watching this and I go, Nope.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh. That's that's enough. That's the end.
SPEAKER_04And so since then, it's really, it's none of this is flattering to me, but since then, I have had so many potential relationships crash and burn because I decided I was seeing a sprinkler moment. I'm just gonna give you a couple of quick other ones really quick. Please. Uh so there was the original one. Uh, this is more recently. There was a woman who I had just dated a couple times, and we just had really short meetups, so I hadn't really spent a lot of time with her. We finally had arranged a time where we could spend a day together, which is, you know, gives us both of us more of a chance to see what's going on. And uh she needed to go home to do something, I don't know what. And so we got to her house and she said, Um, do you want to come in? And usually that's an exciting prospect, right? You want to be asked to come in. Like, yeah, so I'm yeah, sure I do. And I go in and her house she a hoarder?
SPEAKER_00No, uh no, it wasn't.
SPEAKER_04It was more like the house outside was perfectly normal, but inside it was it was so dirty. Oh it was dirty like the kind of dirt that big dogs make. Oh wow, because they were in there. She had a house of big dogs that had been like a metaphor. Cooped up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I can smell it.
SPEAKER_04There was a big, yeah, it had a smell. There was a big giant, like industrial-sized bowl of dog food in the middle, but it was all scattered. Oh no. And there was like the windows, like the sliding glass windows were slobber. And slobbered. No. And I'm looking around and she goes to do whatever, and I'm standing there, and I'm like, No, nope. I'm outie. And I said to her, I'm gonna wait outside. Oh which I did and never saw her again. Yeah, and then the last thing was more recent, where I thought I found my person. I was so excited. I was well into excitement phase. This is not flattering for me.
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, go on.
SPEAKER_04And so she shows up for a meetup, and I feel like there's something in her hair.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04So it's like, you know, you have a little fuzz or something. It's like, oh, I think there's something in her hair. And I look at it, it's a dead flea.
SPEAKER_01Oh for real?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And so again, I outwardly I say, oh, I'll get that for you. And I don't say anything. But in my mind, it's like, nope. Oh I can't go out with flea head or dog, dog house. And so that is a very unfortunate, I again, not flattering, because 99% I think of I always assume secure people would be like, oh, well, that's not even that's an incidental moment. It's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Or yeah, or you'd have a conversation about it and say, so why is there? Why is there a thing? Yeah, like Do you find, Ross? I I think this sprinkler moment thing is very interesting to me. It's do you find that when this happens, is it something that you're sort of actively in the moment saying nope, or is there something the mo the times that I can empathize with that I think it's happened to me, it's sort of been like something inside of me has shut down and said no, and my brain's going like, no, wait, hold on, maybe we can maybe we can try this, and my heart or whatever, the inside thing is like, nah, no, I'm done, I'm done. Like we're cut off. The the water flow is ended, the the faucet has been turned.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell So you're saying like those moments are like the last straw moment.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Like it just and and no matter how hard I might try to turn that faucet on again, it's just not not turning. So is it is it like that or is it something where you're actively turning off that faucet and saying, nah, I'm out?
SPEAKER_04Aaron Powell For me, it's the only way I can describe it, it's like you've been out with somebody a couple times and it's gone pretty well. And then it's a warm day and they're wearing short sleeves and they have a Nazi tattoo.
SPEAKER_02Oh boy. And you're like, that I would actively turn off the focus.
SPEAKER_04So for me, it's like a uh it's like a Star Trek door goes down and closes. Yeah. Yeah and it's over.
SPEAKER_01Like I can't unsee that.
SPEAKER_04And I can get through the rest of the meetup usually. Right. But that's it. Like I will never want to talk to them again.
SPEAKER_01I do the opposite of that, which is not flattering. What is the opposite of that? Yeah, not flattering or healthy for me, is that I'm like, I can work with that. Oh I I got that.
SPEAKER_04I can I can I've got fleece frays.
SPEAKER_01Is it an I can fix that? I have a no piss strip. Oh, I love a project. Oh yeah. It's not flattering. It's not flattering. But my value as a kid growing up in my family was fixing it. Right. Solving it, smoothing it over. So and I have for the last 30 years learned how like I'm a therapist. Right.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_04Yes, you're a fixer. Right.
SPEAKER_01That's gotta be an occupational hazard.
SPEAKER_02That's gotta be a goodness.
SPEAKER_01Right. So I have to be more and more aware of my own willingness to not notice the sprinkler moments or to see them and then say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can handle that. Gotcha. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can handle that. And I think of it as pebble piles. Oh, okay. There's the pile of pebbles that's like, ooh, that's good stuff. And then there's the pebble pile that's like, ooh, that's concerning. I'm not sure about that. I am so willing to not look at that pile and just turn and look at the other pile. My friends call me, they're like, you are just an eternal optimist in relationships.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01I just keep thinking, like, well, I can carry that for you. I have a huge backpack. Put it in my backpack. I got it. I got it. You're gonna be a godless before you know it. Oh my goodness. So I think you know that's such an example of the avoidant and the anxious different styles. There you go, yeah. Neither one of them are the healthiest option. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02Right. Neither one of them is necessarily moving you towards secure.
SPEAKER_01No, but both of them actually have tools that are helpful because in a relationship, one, you need to be able to say nope. Right. And in a relationship, you need to say, well, we're all imperfect.
SPEAKER_02Right. I could carry those pebbles, but you need to be able to say, those ones I can carry, those ones are rancid. Right, right.
SPEAKER_04Those hair bugs are okay.
SPEAKER_02But these other bugs are no way. Right. There you go.
SPEAKER_01That's the rhyme to remember it. Yes. So maybe, you know, in combination, we could help each other. We could be like, I don't know, maybe that's an early note. You could be like, I think your backpack is too heavy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So listen, listen up, truffle pigs. I want to talk about the different combinations, because this is to me, it gets really interesting.
SPEAKER_01Oh, the by the way, the avoidant and the anxious love to line up together. Oh, I believe it. Oh, I believe it. Oh, they're like magnet, just best friends.
SPEAKER_04Okay, now you're now your foreshadowing.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04So um secure, secure, I guess that would be the ideal. Oh, ideal. Yep. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Everything's warm and trusting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And an anxious secure actually do pretty well together. Aaron Powell That's what I read.
SPEAKER_02Because you could because the secure is willing to offer a hand and the anxious wants it. Trevor Burrus The anxious wants it.
SPEAKER_01That's the key. The anxious is like, uh I'm in on that. I'll join you over there.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell My very my parents were in a very healthy long-term relationship. My mom told me once that the best advice she got at her wedding, which she prefaced by saying, people love to give you advice at your wedding, and it's really Can I swear on this show? I forget.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, great. It's really fucking irritating. But uh you have to wait. Yes, go on. Yeah, no, of course I mean yeah, exactly. No, but she says the best advice that she got was someone who said only one of you can be crazy at once.
SPEAKER_01So what's wild is that Stan Tatkin says the same thing. He's like, he exactly says, um, yeah, you can you can take turns being crazy, but you can't be crazy at the same time.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Because when you get to that place where both of you are crazy at the same time, that's just not that's not healthy. That's not that's counseling time because you need someone in the room who's not in crazy mode. Right.
SPEAKER_04And by the same token, can't a secure avoidant relationship work?
SPEAKER_01Well, any of them can work.
SPEAKER_04Aaron Ross Powell Well, yeah, but I mean and just in terms uh because I'm about to get to the last one, which well, there's two more are more problematic, but I thought like maybe secure avoidant could work for the same reason.
SPEAKER_01A secure is easier to be in a relationship with for everyone.
SPEAKER_04Because they can do all the things.
SPEAKER_01But the the anxious is tends to be more seeking and open. Right. And the avoidant tends to be m more pushback, but there are continuums of this, like how far out you are on anxious and avoidant. That makes sense. And so if you just tend toward avoidant or you tend toward anxious and you have awareness of that, I think the awareness of that own that and be like, oh, I'm doing my thing. Or if your partner's like, hey, honey, you're over on your island. Can you come back? Right? And the the avoidant is like, I am, I am, hold on. I'm I'll be I'll be there in a minute. Right. Like, give me a minute, I'm coming, right? Yeah. Um then that works.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01But yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh wait, I'm sorry, are you are you saying communication is key? I don't know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I think you're on to something there.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I've discovered it.
SPEAKER_02I'm I'm reminded of a famous tweet. Uh I'm going to get a good grade in therapy, something that is both normal to want and possible to achieve.
SPEAKER_01I do give grades. Oh, good. Okay. You should be my therapist then. I would thrive. At the end of each session, I I judge how everyone did. Here we go.
SPEAKER_04This is all about building your practice, Tracy. Not that you need any help, but people are going to be lined up from all over the world.
SPEAKER_00Great.
SPEAKER_04Yep. Um So avoidant anxious. That's gotta be tough. That's a train wreck, right?
SPEAKER_01It's well, it's my it's my favorite go-to.
SPEAKER_04Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's kind of high excitement, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, it can't be. It can be. It is. I mean, i if I look at my relations relationship history, I love to chase someone and have them run from being. No, my own therapist said to me, she's like, it seems like you create relationship structures that reinforce your belief about yourself not being worthwhile. Wow. Oh man.
SPEAKER_02Well, isn't that so common, though?
SPEAKER_04I would not pay that bill. That's too much truth.
SPEAKER_02No, isn't that so common though? Because I I feel like I've heard that talked about in terms of the cycle of abuse, too, where it's you you're used to the world behaving a certain way, so you seek it out or create it because even if it is painful or uncomfortable, it makes sense.
SPEAKER_01It's familiar. So we seek out familiar patterns until we get more aware of them, and then we can choose not to. That said, again, an aware anxious person and an aware avoidant person can work together. Right. I mean, there's nothing like a working relationship to help you grow and heal some of those things. Right. So there is none of these that like can't work.
SPEAKER_02Or like categorical no-go's.
SPEAKER_01No, but but if you're so far out, like two super avoidance um might actually work well because they'll just have their own rooms.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so like long-distance relationships. Like there have been famous like long-distance relationships where people like live really far away from each other and only see each other for intense bursts. And it works well for both.
SPEAKER_02For them, right.
SPEAKER_04Usually they're in other relationships as well. Sure. But but still, this idea like George O'Keefe, the painter, had a relationship like this where it just went on for, I think it went on for decades. Maybe her entire adult life with a person who I think was in a relationship on the East Coast. And they just had this long-term connection that was not it was more than a friendship. They did it was definitely a romantic connection, but they were like two, at least if one of them was avoidant, but maybe they were both avoidant. And that can work, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02Or then there's um Frida Kahlo and her husband uh Diego Rivera had didn't they have the situation where they had two houses next to each other with like a conjoining bridge or something so that they each had very much their own space.
SPEAKER_01I don't actually know how healthy that relationship was, but whatever two people work out that works for the two of them, then that works. Or more than two people. Or more than two. Yes. Whatever the people in the relationship have, as long as it's working for them, then it works.
SPEAKER_04However many truffle pigs are in the thing.
SPEAKER_01However many truffle pigs are in the clown card. If all the trip if they all fit and everyone's exactly in their own community.
SPEAKER_04Sure, right. Absolutely. So my longest relationship was avoidant avoidant. It lasted. We did that in unison. Don't don't yuck my yum.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm not yucking it at all. We were yumming it. We were yumming it. We were my yuck. Oh, there we go. It's a whole nother thing.
SPEAKER_04Um yeah. So my first wife, we were married a long time. I've never counted the years. I really haven't. Really? Yeah, I don't want to know the answer.
SPEAKER_01I could figure it out very much classically avoidant.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I don't want to know how long it was. But we lasted a long time. Two independent people who did their own thing. We worked really well together when we had to on like basic living stuff or kids stuff. We were thumbs up.
SPEAKER_02Co-parenting, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, but there was little on the romantic side, there was the not any excitement. There was nothing fun about it. It was more like two friends that are working on the task.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04My second longest relationship was secure, secure.
SPEAKER_01Ooh.
SPEAKER_04We got to that space.
SPEAKER_01And that's the magic right there.
SPEAKER_04There was no excitement, no drama, none of the things. No highs and lows. Yeah. Yeah. It was just a steady kind of hum. Got boring.
SPEAKER_01Ooh, let's talk about that. Can we talk about that? Yeah. So there's this woman named Esther Perell, who's wonderful. I highly recommend. She has podcasts, she has books, she has she's lovely. Um and she talks a lot about um long-term relationships and affairs. She so she has a book called Meting Him Captivity, and the one called The State of the Affair, and and other ones. But what she talks about that I think makes a lot of sense is, and I alluded to this, I foreshadowed this. Oh. Um, she says that, you know, early in that relationship, the like lusty, exciting, erotic um part of the like, and I don't mean just sexually, I mean like you know, that like exciting, juicy part of the relationship is easier to find. Yeah. And the safety and security is harder to find. Yeah. As you get further. Into that relationship, the safety and security becomes easier to find and no longer needs cultivating as much. And now that erotic, juicy, lusty, novel part of the relationship needs cultivating. Okay. So in long-term relationships, if you want that part that stays juicy and exciting, you have to invest in it and cultivate that. Otherwise, it goes dormant.
SPEAKER_04People have to get some outfits.
SPEAKER_01If that's what works for them, if that's what you're into? If that's what you're into. Well, the things are like doing something new together, having novel activities, traveling. Like it could be playing a new game. It could be going to a new restaurant. It could be outfits, whatever feels exciting to those two people that keeps the like interest and excitement and novelty happening in your world together, then you can cultivate that and it stays there. Whether that's, you know, um your sex life or not, it's that juicy part of life.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, one thing I think that you said that was interesting was uh if you want that aspect, you need to cultivate it. Right. Because I am someone who I'm not in a relationship right now. And when I'm not in a relationship, what I miss and crave is the safety and security part. And when I'm in a relationship, that's significantly more important to me than the I I want both, but I I definitely have more eggs in the safety and security basket. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um again, it's just how you decide to it's how the two people or however many people in the relationship want that to work. Right.
SPEAKER_04Well, and that's um, you know, go back to where I started, that's I think why some relationships that are in that phase get stale. Um because you get into this sort of autopilot mode. Yes. Especially if you have like a super like uh uh consuming job and or little kids.
SPEAKER_02Or some other energy suck.
SPEAKER_04Something is taking your and it distracts you from the reality that your relationship has gotten to a low spot.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04And that's the thing that um I think is hard for people to see. And I've said on another podcast that you can burn ten years easy, you can do a decade just going to work and taking care of kids, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I did.
SPEAKER_04And it's and next thing you know, you're like 10 years down the road. Yeah, and you will tell this to people who haven't been there, and they will say, Why did you stay with this person in this relationship? And it's like it wasn't even a thing. It was easy.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. I've not had that with a romantic relationship, but I have definitely had that with enough other things in my life that I feel like I can contextualize how how easy it is to look up and realize how long it's been that you've been treading water in something.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I remember my kids were 10 and 7, and I looked up and I was like, what? Whoa. Right.
SPEAKER_02Where have I been? What happened?
SPEAKER_01What where did it go? And this isn't this is really beige.
SPEAKER_02It's the lobster in the pot, right? It's you you don't realize it's boiling and then slowly and steadily, and then you look up and you're like, oh whoa.
SPEAKER_04And I'm fascinated. I see this happen all the time. It's happening with people I know right now. They're in this position where their relationship has gone stale. And the go-to's are let's either there's three things. Let's either get a baby in here somehow.
SPEAKER_02Not not not good, not a good reason to have a kid. Oh no, no, God, no. Oh man, that poor kid. I'm poor kid. I know I know. I know. No, I just God, that poor kid to to be born for that reason. No one should be born as a fixer.
SPEAKER_04Let's get a baby, yeah, because it never works. But let's get a baby or two in here.
SPEAKER_02Let's put that on an infant.
SPEAKER_04The other one is let's remodel whatever our living space is.
SPEAKER_01Ideally do them at the same time. Oh, okay, there you go.
SPEAKER_04That's great.
SPEAKER_01It's good. That's the good shit.
SPEAKER_04And I will tell you, I know more than a few people who have done a big remodel on their space, and then when it's finally done, they break up. Yeah. Because it's like this didn't fix anything. It was a great distraction. Right.
SPEAKER_01House looks good. House looks real good.
SPEAKER_04Let's really spend all this dough and went through all this inconvenience, and then they like show all their friends, and then like that's they get a lot of people. No, no. And then the other thing which is a l is still a commitment, but it's not on the same scale as a baby or a remodel is a pet.
SPEAKER_01Oh, to get a puppy. Let's get a puppy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Let's get another two. The dog is a big thing.
SPEAKER_02If you're gonna do it, do a cat, because a cat as a cat owner, I can say a cat will be fine no matter what. Except I'm really allergic. Oh man, I'm that's rough. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a sprinkler, mommy.
SPEAKER_02I'm slightly allergic, actually, to still have a cat.
SPEAKER_04You could have a truffle pig. Truffle pigs are very smart.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yes, I've heard this.
SPEAKER_04They will eat you, though.
SPEAKER_02Pigs terrify me, actually. They're very frightened. My eyes are so intelligent. I'm like, you know, you understand what's happening here, and I don't like that.
SPEAKER_01Makes me uncomfortable with how much I like bacon. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And a pack of a pack of pigs could consume a human body in less than 10 hours.
SPEAKER_01I think that does not shock me. If you want to get rid of a body you have in your head.
SPEAKER_04And they will eat the bones and everything.
SPEAKER_02So if your relationship goes really bad.
SPEAKER_04Then you know what to do.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well.
SPEAKER_04So I had two other so I've had, let's see, one, two, four significant relationships in my life. So the first two, one was avoidant, avoidant. That one lasted the longest. The next longest was a secure, secure that got stale, and then it got too stale.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And people gave up. And then I had two other significant relationships, which were avoidant anxious. I was the avoidant. The other person was the anxious. Right. Holy mackerel. It was never stale.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_04It was like a roller coaster without any track.
SPEAKER_02God, well, to go back to the ocean metaphor, right? That's gotta be somebody in there going, life ring, life ring, life ring, and someone on the on the island going, please stop talking to me.
SPEAKER_04Oh my God. It was just, it was so both of them were just so much fun at the beginning. Oh, I'm sure. Never had more fun in a relationship at all levels.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But then it just got more and more and more twisted and disturbed. Um and uh unsustainable. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way as an person who tends toward the avoidant that I could maintain the level of security that an anxious style needed. No way, I couldn't do it. It was exhausting for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, but man, it was, I kind of think it's sort of like I tell people, you know, there's a couple things that everybody should do. One is ride a New York subway.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, another one is to spend some time in New Orleans.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, and and another one I think that people should do is uh be in an avoidant anxious relationship.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm gonna say check, check, check.
SPEAKER_02I think I'm two for I think I'm two for three. Three for three for three, and I'll get to New Orleans. Got them.
SPEAKER_04But it's um you know, and and and I think we can agree, I hope, that a successful relationship can be defined so many ways, not just by longevity. And I try to say, like, well, even my first marriage where it was avoidant, avoidant, there was so much success there. Right. Um but it it a lot of people see it, well, it's a failure because it didn't last for a hundred years.
SPEAKER_01I agree. Go ahead first, sorry. Man, the idea that a successful relationship is when one person dies and that's how it ends, is so silly.
SPEAKER_04That's super avoidant to die.
SPEAKER_01Like the the most avoidant you can be in to die.
SPEAKER_02Go ahead. Oh, I I was just gonna say I it's uh that's something actually, Ross, that I've been stewing on since uh you s you talked at the beginning about the sunk cost fallacy and staying in relationships because you're you're already in them and you've put so much time into them. And I think in some ways the solution to that uh and the the positive outlook on it, right, is the what how much have I learned about myself and how much have I grown and changed? And how much do I value this time that I had with you and these these exciting moments that we did have? And we got to know each other and that was really cool. And maybe it blew up, but I get to walk away with that, you know?
SPEAKER_04This is what I'm talking about. For me, all of my relationships, the my serious ones, have been successful, yeah, but differently.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. There are things that I would have done differently in the three relatively major relationships that I've had, but I wouldn't undo any of them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'd I would say the same. Like each one of my significant relationships has been worthwhile. Yeah. And I I don't think of them as failures. No. I think of them as like, well, that's that's how long they lasted. I think Ross, you spoke to this in another podcast, and there's lots of research that shows like it um healthy long-term relationships improve our longevity, they improve our overall health, our life satisfaction, all those things. Now, unhealthy relationships do the opposite. Right. They're they have too much cortisol and and too much stress hormones going on in there and actually reduces that for us. But if we have a healthy relationship, there was some I I won't get this exactly right. I saw Dan Siegel speak one time and he was talking about this in particular. He was saying they'd done this study in a hospital or medical something, and there was a person getting a procedure, and when their um intimate partner that they felt good with came and touched them, oh, touches their page was reduced, their anxiety was reduced, their heart weight rate was reduced. I mean, very measurable things were reduced.
SPEAKER_02Scientific body. We need well, and all the studies about babies needing chest-to-chest, skin-to-skin contact, right, when they're born, right? Like it's huge. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04This is a great segue into what I want to talk about next. But if you're sitting there in a stale relationship, you know, some of the things about, you know, making the relationship the priority and finding new things that you can use to invigorate the relationship, sharing your vision about the future and where you want to be, talking about the fact that maybe both will become complacent or bored, those are all the things that experts recommend, you know, have those conversations. It's just hard to, first of all, realize that the relationship has gone stale. Like you don't know how you got there. Yeah. And I think what happens is to a lot of people is when they get to that place um that and they've run out of distractions, they lose the motivation to do anything about it.
SPEAKER_01I think that can happen.
SPEAKER_04You know, it's just like, mm, I don't I don't want to anymore. My vision of the future doesn't include this person.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah. Well, I think it's easier to walk away than fix it sometimes. Oh, I think that's true. I mean, I think ideally, if we are actually in a secure functioning relationship, you know, that the house Dan Tatkin talks about it, and you know, then the the Gottmans, John and Julie Gottman at the Gottman Institute also talk about, you know, they recommend having a State of the Union conversation regularly, so that you're actually checking in on that regularly so that you don't actually go down that road, that you're doing the maintenance on that relationship along the way so that you're regularly investing in this relationship and showing up for each other so you don't actually get to that place so far down that place that it's hard to pull it back.
SPEAKER_02Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well, and let me say one of the worst feelings I think I have ever experienced is when you get to that point and one person says, I'm I'm out, you know, I'm my version of this is pulling the ripcord, I'm out, and the other person is is wanting to stay in it and fight for it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I've I've been on both sides of that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Same thing. I think within I'm leaving and I'm taking the treffle pig with me.
SPEAKER_00They had a flea in their hair. How do you not notice that? Yeah, that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_01I saw it at 20 feet. Yeah, that is wild. It's weird that you wouldn't.
SPEAKER_02I mean, who knows what kind of day they had.
SPEAKER_01Was that dead flea?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that was dead. That made it worse to me.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, because then it's like, well, why is a flea choosing your head to go to die? An avoidant flea.
SPEAKER_02It could have fought. Maybe, you know, maybe they were antiquing and a dead flea fell off a beam above them in the antique story.
SPEAKER_04Anything can happen.
SPEAKER_02Anything can happen.
SPEAKER_04I know. And that's what I find interesting about this, my attachment style, is that I don't make allowances for those realities.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I make too many.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, see? I make too many. It's interesting. So I want to talk. So I the way I look at attachment styles, and again, it was sort of a new idea for me, but I look at those as a little less flexible than something that people call love language. I see that as perhaps a little more flexible, at least in their sense of understanding how your partner may like to orient toward expressions of love or how you orient to them. So if attachment style is like the physical layout of a house, the love languages are more like wall, paper, and paint.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's not.
SPEAKER_04To me, is I look just to catch people up who are like me and haven't really thought about this as a thing. Uh words of affirmation are the encouragement, the affirmations, the appreciation, the empathy, the the the listening actively, really being tuned in. Okay, so either you're uh good at doing that, or you that's where you that's what you need from your partner. Those are words of affirmation. Physical touch is obvious, just nonverbal, uh body stuff, uh hugs, kisses, whatever, back rubs, foot rubs, receiving gifts, that's exactly what you think it would be. Somebody gets you something, doesn't have to be a big thing.
SPEAKER_02I thought of you, and here's this thing.
SPEAKER_04Uh quality time is just uninterrupted focused time with somebody doing whatever. And then acts of service are hey, I got picked up the dry cleaning. Right. I know, you know, I know that you were at a Diet Coke, so I stopped and got some, even though I don't drink Diet Coke, I know you like it. I wanted you to have it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think mine's somewhere between words and and the acts of service. Yeah. It's because it's something about the intent of it, right? For me. And so that intent can express itself in different ways, but it's most often Yeah, I think I skipped acts of service in mine.
SPEAKER_01That's way above gifts. Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_04So mine are I went and I think there's I took a quiz, which I'm gonna put in the show notes, but I took a quiz and I already thought I knew what mine was, but the quiz confirmed it, which was physical touch and quality time. Those are the things that are magic for me. And I was in a relationship once where the other person was, they were uh acts of service, so they were always doing things for me.
SPEAKER_01Uh but that's not what landed for you.
SPEAKER_04It doesn't land for me. And when the and so touch is so important, and um I I remember one time, this is just one example where I came up in a non-sexual way and just tried to like hug them from behind, like you know, that kind of just expression. Yep. Which makes total sense in my world.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yes.
SPEAKER_04And the person says, Hey, you gotta warn me before you do stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02Oh so Well, and if that's your language, then that's heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_04And so so like I get it. Like I I didn't have this framework to use then because then I just was like, wow, that is so that's so strongly negative. Yeah. But this framework helps me understand, like, that isn't the way they express their uh caring. They're caring. The way this person expressed their caring was by doing things for me. Like, look at all these things I've done for you. And that's what they wanted me to do for them. Right. And so we would have these ongoing discussions. We never really thought so much, but we had discussions about why I wasn't doing certain things. And I always thought I was like, who cares? Right. Right. Like that's how it's like, you're really you care about this little thing. Like one day uh it was a Saturday morning, I'd been away from home on a business thing, and I came back late Friday night. Everybody was already asleep. I crawl into bed, I'm zonked. And um, so I'm asleep in the morning, and all of a sudden there's all this what I can only describe as marching up and down the hallway outside the bedroom. Wow loud, like somebody with like combat boots.
SPEAKER_02Whoa.
SPEAKER_04And I'm like, wake, and I'm just trying to like stay asleep, and you can't.
SPEAKER_02I just want to be in that fluffy sleeve place.
SPEAKER_04And I just finally get up and I'm like, what is going on? And my partner at times says, I am so mad at you. And I'm like, how can it be?
SPEAKER_00I was I've been home for eight hours and I've been sleeping for eight of them and haven't talked to you. I haven't had a chance.
SPEAKER_04Well, you came home and you left your shoes in the living room.
SPEAKER_00Oh no.
SPEAKER_04And I had spent all this time getting the house cleaned up and you just disregarded. And like for me, that was such like a foreign concept. Yeah, it was like, what? That's what you're mad about.
SPEAKER_01Right. So so I think that is a serious example of anxious attachment run amok.
SPEAKER_04Okay, interesting.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_04Anxious attachment run amok. And why do you say that?
SPEAKER_01Because she I I'm I'm I'm making it up, right? I'm I'm assuming what was going on in her head. She was anticipating you coming home. Yep. She did all these things for you so that she could be seen as worthwhile, valuable, and you came home and you did something that she made mean that you didn't care about what she didn't, which meant you didn't care about her.
SPEAKER_04They would often say that about things. Like if I didn't turn off the lights, it meant that I didn't care about her.
SPEAKER_01Right. But she made it mean that other things. Interesting. Her job in that was to say, hey, you know what I notice about myself? When I do these things and then you leave your shoes there, I make that mean you don't care about me. I know that doesn't mean that. That's right. And I still make it mean that. So I'm gonna do my part to notice when I do that on the inside and realize he just leaves his shoes there and it doesn't mean that. And I'm gonna ask you that if you could remember that, that would really help me. Right.
SPEAKER_04And if I had had that framework, because to me, uh that information was communicated, obviously, like I got it, but it didn't make sense. But having this framework of love language, which is easy to look up online if you're interested, it gives you a way to say, oh, this is just how the this is how their filters are. It's like understanding it in a way that makes sense, that does that takes away some of the you're you're not a great partner because it's judgment out of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like it's not personal anymore.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04What do you think about the developing in a early on at the beginning of a serious relationship, like it's gone beyond the excitement phase, and you're like, you know, this is actually worth taking to the next level of adjustments and tweaks. What do you think about just immediately developing, if you can afford it, the habit of going to therapy once in some some regular period, whether it's once a couples therapy or a singles therapy? Couples.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I think that whether it is structuring it to go to therapy or it's just having structured conversations so you make sure that you maintain that relationship, I think it's super important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking was you bringing up the State of the Union earlier and thinking, okay, so maybe for some people the state of the union, just the two of them, is what works well. And for some people, maybe they want to have that uh impartial voice in the room, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I think finding some way to build in a check-in of some kind, whether it's mediated or not, is something that would have really helped me early on in relationships that I've been in. That we're just going to develop a habit of doing a formalized check-in somehow, whatever that means, on some b periodic basis, whatever that means.
SPEAKER_02I think that takes the weight off of the individual people too, right? Because there's this element, for me at least, of if if I want to have a check-in and that's not something that we've built in already as an option or something, I'm like, oh, does this make me are they gonna assume that that means that I think everything is is bad or that I don't want to be here, or like what what's their judgment gonna be of me asking for having a State of the Union if that's not something that's kind of already in our vocabulary? You know? Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Can we talk about it? What's interesting though about the love language framework for me is that there's one there's one thing about saying, hey, it bugs me when you leave your shoes out or you don't wash the dishes or whatever. Like, but to me that's kind of like basic roommate stuff. Right. It's different when the person says the way I orient toward our relationship is through these kinds of things. So it's it's a much higher stakes, and it's that's how I Frame the the the loving part of our relationship. So now it's not just like, God, why put my shoes away, not put my shoes away. Is it a big cry what's the crime? It just it seems more incidental, but when it's framed as a love language, it's like, oh wait, this is really important.
SPEAKER_01And also I think the other part of that is it's not my partner's job to help me sort out those shoes and my feeling about it, but it is my job to understand why that's impacting me that way.
SPEAKER_04Right. But I was thinking with this love language thing, one take is that if the problem is the physical touch where one person their love language is physical touch and the other person's love language is not physical touch, is there any way to salvage that? Because I'm thinking no.
SPEAKER_01Well, I again I think that framework is right, this is where it's always the conversation to say this is really important to me in a relationship. Are you gonna be able to meet me there in a way that that matches?
SPEAKER_04Aaron Ross Powell, I don't think that truffle pig is gonna hunt.
SPEAKER_01Well then then that's a sprinkler moment. Right. I don't think touch is different than the others, is I guess what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02I do.
SPEAKER_04I think that's the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, because it's really important for you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, there you go. Yeah. You think it yeah, that makes complete sense.
SPEAKER_01Right. Because that's really important for you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01But if the other person is like, but that's on the bottom of my list. Right, right. So you have to regularly come to a place where you're going to renegotiate that gridlock problem.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or what Stan Tatkins says is get clear on your deal breakers early and call it. Like if if your relationship that's your sprinkler moment.
SPEAKER_04That's where the sprinkler moment can save your life.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_04Last take. This was the thing that I mentioned that I foreshadowed at the very beginning. I said I have a question. And I guess the question is, do you think it's possible to fall in love with just being single?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04And what do you think about it, both of you? What do you think?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think the reality is that there's not one right answer for anyone. And that you can live a satisfying, really happy, full life, whether partnered or single.
SPEAKER_04It's not necessarily you're not necessarily a defective person if you're happy and single.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_02But society sure does say that. Yes. And so what's healthy for me is being in a s in a relationship with one other person while it works, and then when it doesn't, being single and enjoying being single and enjoying myself in my own company. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that sounds right to me too. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02And also never saying never because something can happen. Things surprise you no matter what. That's you never know. This is a completely other topic, but as someone who didn't realize, I'm gonna say realize, not even come to terms with, but realize that I was bisexual until my early twenties. I think there's always you meet someone that surprises you and unlocks you know, I didn't think that I would fall in love with, right?
SPEAKER_01Right, right. So I did that in my 40s.
SPEAKER_02Hey! Hell yeah. Anytime. There's no timeline, right? There's no timeline. No. And it's all a spectrum.
SPEAKER_04And I'm gonna leave it with that comment, because that is perfect. Thank you, Tracy. I'd love having you on the show. Uh people all over the world get free therapy whenever you're here. We have people listening to us in about 35 countries.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_04And so that's very cool. When you're here, they get free therapy.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's pretty fun. Thanks for having me on for that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and thank you, Madeline. Yes. Great co-host. I hope you'll do this again.
SPEAKER_02I would love to. It's been an absolute pleasure.
SPEAKER_04I love having your wisdom on the show. And thank you, everyone, for joining us for this episode. If you, for some reason, find yourself liking what we're doing, we could use your help. We're totally independent. So you can follow us on Instagram or Twitter. I mentioned the Apple iTunes ratings can really help us get the word out. You can support us on Patreon, that's a thing you can do. And you can reach out to us with email. I'd love to do a mailbag show sometime if we could get people asking us questions. But we'd love your support. Any way you can help us grow the community, it would be really cool for you to do that if you're finding that you like this. If nothing else, share the show with another person that you know who you think might like it, and that helps a great deal. And we hope you will tune in to another episode because whether you are deciding how long you should hold on to your gas or just someone who's foreshadowing a truffle pig, it's important to remember that we all smell like humans. Goodbye, everybody.
SPEAKER_03Bye bye.